Great Christian Fallacies.
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25-05-2013, 02:02 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Are you saying a pet owner loves cats when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where a pet owner can show his love for a cat by causing a cat to suffer?

Does this sound a tad bit insane to you yet?

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25-05-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(24-05-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Let's return to the question of children suffering. You thought that God is unfair or hates children if those children suffer.

Yup. And not just the children suffer. Their families, friends and the people that come in contact with them experience various degrees of mental trauma. The suffering of children makes sense in a godless world ruled by nature. It's a lottery, and some of us are more fortunate than others.

Christian theists usually do the following to try and excuse their god:

1. Blame suffering on the 'fall of man';
2. Play the 'free will' card;
3. Play the 'they'll go to heaven forever' card;
4. Equate suffering with love;
5. SATAN Evil_monster

I find it incredible that an all-powerful god needs a PR team of humans to clean up after his legacy.

I'm not here to change your mind. I'm here to learn how you think. When you accept the suffering of some humans as 'loving' and reassure yourself that they'll go to heaven, you cross a line I will not follow you across.

(24-05-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Are you saying God loves children when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where God can show his love for a child by causing a child to suffer?

No condition. Your god doesn't spank his kids and send them to bed without dinner. We send people to prison for harming children, yet the harm we cause to each other is nothing compared to the harm you choose to accept from your creator.

(24-05-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  It sounds like a lot of what we're discussing boils down to concepts of fairness, which is why I ask. For another example, are you saying it's unfair that a Christian gets to live forever?

A Christian versus everyone else? Yes. And which type of Christian, because there are many branches with their own ideas about how to get to Disneyland.

An omnipotent god creates humans knowing, before they're ever created, which ones will suffer eternally and which won't. Very unfair.

If you took the stance that we're on our own, your god is not involved in our lives, and he only loves his chosen people, then I would respect your honesty. But you don't. The god you're describing requires too much spin and I do not accept your explanations.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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25-05-2013, 10:52 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(24-05-2013 01:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Just as my children and I can have conflict where our wills don't intersect, man and God can come into conflict where one's will or desire is beyond the other's.

Thanks.

My son and I occasionally differ on will; however there are a couple of key differences between our will clashes and those between supposed-god and his alleged subjects:

1. I can actually see and talk to my son. We can have a conversation and come to a resolution. Neither of us is talking to the air.
2. If I must punish him, he will be grounded, not have locust plagues, slaughter, or eternal burning in hell visited upon him for not believing as I do.

So the analogy that compares parenthood to the shenanigans in the Old Testament (lots of plagues and smiting), followed by eternal hell in the New, does not hold up in my mind.
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28-05-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:Are you saying a pet owner loves cats when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where a pet owner can show his love for a cat by causing a cat to suffer?

Does this sound a tad bit insane to you yet?

To answer you and the others who are SURE no suffering can be caused by a loving agent, well:

*My cat suffers when it is given shots at the VET

*Children suffer when they have colds and other diseases that overall build their T and white cell capability and their RESISTANCE

*Few children enjoy reading and doing homework after school. They'd rather play. If Atheists had their way, all suffering, and therefore, all schoolwork, exercise, dieting, abstinence and other healthy lifestyle behaviors would be eliminated.

And if you REALLY cared about MY suffering, you'd all become Christians. Do you not love me because you are so cruel to me and cause my suffering? Do you hate me?
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28-05-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:My son and I occasionally differ on will; however there are a couple of key differences between our will clashes and those between supposed-god and his alleged subjects:

1. I can actually see and talk to my son. We can have a conversation and come to a resolution. Neither of us is talking to the air.
2. If I must punish him, he will be grounded, not have locust plagues, slaughter, or eternal burning in hell visited upon him for not believing as I do.

So the analogy that compares parenthood to the shenanigans in the Old Testament (lots of plagues and smiting), followed by eternal hell in the New, does not hold up in my mind.

Put down "lots of plagues and smiting" for your "Survey of the Old Testament" final essay and watch your grade go to F. We both know there's far more in both testaments and you're upset that both sides of God (love and justice) and both sides of life (pleasure and suffering) are honestly reported in the Bible.

But let's adjust your analogy slightly. Let's compare to a dad who loves his children and wrote or filmed some directions for them, then died and left their presence. Would you say the dad didn't care for them or did because he left them some directions they could follow? The Bible is direction and love in written documents.

Further, do children spend FOREVER in the home or do they go out on their own. And when they do, are they able to conflict between what they know of their father's will and their own collective will? Of course they do.
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28-05-2013, 06:59 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
I do not KNOW that anything is "honestly reported" in the bibble, and neither do you.

The filmmaker dad would have actually existed. Again, false analogy.

"The Bible is love and direction"--and murder and rape and slavery and incest and misogyny, plus a lot of tedious begats. You are making statements with nothing to back them up and special pleading. Again.

Yes when they leave home, they hopefully know their own mind, but again, what does this have to do with anything?

Sorry, PJ, but the F still goes to you for false analogies, as well as continued appeal to false authority and special pleading. You seriously need a logic course.
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28-05-2013, 07:05 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(28-05-2013 02:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Are you saying a pet owner loves cats when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where a pet owner can show his love for a cat by causing a cat to suffer?

Does this sound a tad bit insane to you yet?

To answer you and the others who are SURE no suffering can be caused by a loving agent, well:

*My cat suffers when it is given shots at the VET

*Children suffer when they have colds and other diseases that overall build their T and white cell capability and their RESISTANCE

*Few children enjoy reading and doing homework after school. They'd rather play. If Atheists had their way, all suffering, and therefore, all schoolwork, exercise, dieting, abstinence and other healthy lifestyle behaviors would be eliminated.

And if you REALLY cared about MY suffering, you'd all become Christians. Do you not love me because you are so cruel to me and cause my suffering? Do you hate me?

So how about Kim Peterson? He was an eleven year old boy who was lured into an apartment by Authur Bishop in 1980. The boy was sexually assaulted and then bludgeoned to death before being buried in a field not far from there. He was one of five such boys who were molested and murdered by Bishop.

Who was god actually helping through this suffering? These boys' parents? Bishop? The boys themselves? What good has your god done through allowing these young boys to suffer the brutality they endured?

That's hardly comparable to a fucking tetanus shot, don't you think?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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29-05-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
From a look at Man's Search For Meaning on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man's_Search_for_Meaning

An example of Frankl's idea of finding meaning in the midst of extreme suffering is found in his account of an experience he had while working in the harsh conditions of the Auschwitz concentration camp:


... We stumbled on in the darkness, over big stones and through large puddles, along the one road leading from the camp. The accompanying guards kept shouting at us and driving us with the butts of their rifles. Anyone with very sore feet supported himself on his neighbor's arm. Hardly a word was spoken; the icy wind did not encourage talk. Hiding his mouth behind his upturned collar, the man marching next to me whispered suddenly: "If our wives could see us now! I do hope they are better off in their camps and don't know what is happening to us."
That brought thoughts of my own wife to mind. And as we stumbled on for miles, slipping on icy spots, supporting each other time and again, dragging one another up and onward, nothing was said, but we both knew: each of us was thinking of his wife. Occasionally I looked at the sky, where the stars were fading and the pink light of the morning was beginning to spread behind a dark bank of clouds. But my mind clung to my wife's image, imagining it with an uncanny acuteness. I heard her answering me, saw her smile, her frank and encouraging look. Real or not, her look was then more luminous than the sun which was beginning to rise.
A thought transfixed me: for the first time in my life I saw the truth as it is set into song by so many poets, proclaimed as the final wisdom by so many thinkers. The truth – that love is the ultimate and the highest goal to which man can aspire. Then I grasped the meaning of the greatest secret that human poetry and human thought and belief have to impart: The salvation of man is through love and in love. I understood how a man who has nothing left in this world still may know bliss, be it only for a brief moment, in the contemplation of his beloved. In a position of utter desolation, when man cannot express himself in positive action, when his only achievement may consist in enduring his sufferings in the right way – an honorable way – in such a position man can, through loving contemplation of the image he carries of his beloved, achieve fulfillment. For the first time in my life I was able to understand the meaning of the words, "The angels are lost in perpetual contemplation of an infinite glory...."[5]
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29-05-2013, 12:27 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:"The Bible is love and direction"--and murder and rape and slavery and incest and misogyny, plus a lot of tedious begats. You are making statements with nothing to back them up and special pleading. Again.

Again, very few threads around here on biblical wisdom literature like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, repositories of those very things.

The fact that the Bible records murder and rape no more makes it an advocate of those things than a book documenting Nazi atrocities makes it firmly a pro-Nazi book.
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29-05-2013, 12:35 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(28-05-2013 02:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Children suffer when they have colds and other diseases that overall build their T and white cell capability and their RESISTANCE

*Few children enjoy reading and doing homework after school. They'd rather play. If Atheists had their way, all suffering, and therefore, all schoolwork, exercise, dieting, abstinence and other healthy lifestyle behaviors would be eliminated.

And if you REALLY cared about MY suffering, you'd all become Christians. Do you not love me because you are so cruel to me and cause my suffering? Do you hate me?

(29-05-2013 12:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:"The Bible is love and direction"--and murder and rape and slavery and incest and misogyny, plus a lot of tedious begats. You are making statements with nothing to back them up and special pleading. Again.

Again, very few threads around here on biblical wisdom literature like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, repositories of those very things.

The fact that the Bible records murder and rape no more makes it an advocate of those things than a book documenting Nazi atrocities makes it firmly a pro-Nazi book.

Yes giving children terminal cancer is very "good for them", isn't it ?
And you know very well it does FAR more than "record" it. It sanctions it, for the enemies of Yahweh. Or have you never actually read it ?

Why are you bothering us, while you're at work ? Tongue

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Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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