Great Christian Fallacies.
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30-05-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(30-05-2013 10:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-05-2013 08:40 PM)FYAstronomy Wrote:  There is no free will. Free will is gone the moment you come into existence. Whether you believe that to be by natural cause or through divine creation matters not. Through no choice of your own you come to exist. Therefore, man has no free will.

It does not logically follow from one not choosing existence that one does not have free will.

That is an assertion with which I disagree. Consider a coma victim on life support. Their existence allows no free will on their part. The same is true in utero. You have no control over how or where you come into existence. You could be born in Africa only to starve to death three days later, or you could be the offspring of a meth addict who's choices in life leave you to deal with severe deformities and mental deficiencies. Free will is an illusion maintained by those who are live long enough to gain emancipation from their parents, of average or better intelligence as well as average or better health. You have no control over things that happen to you by random chance and you can become a prisoner in your own body more easily than we care to admit.

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“The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.”
-Ferdinand Magellan
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30-05-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(30-05-2013 11:34 AM)FYAstronomy Wrote:  
(30-05-2013 10:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  It does not logically follow from one not choosing existence that one does not have free will.

That is an assertion with which I disagree. Consider a coma victim on life support. Their existence allows no free will on their part. The same is true in utero. You have no control over how or where you come into existence. You could be born in Africa only to starve to death three days later, or you could be the offspring of a meth addict who's choices in life leave you to deal with severe deformities and mental deficiencies. Free will is an illusion maintained by those who are live long enough to gain emancipation from their parents, of average or better intelligence as well as average or better health. You have no control over things that happen to you by random chance and you can become a prisoner in your own body more easily than we care to admit.

Again, you are not making a logically coherent argument. Not having control of external events has nothing to do with free will.

You seem to be confusing free will with control.

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30-05-2013, 01:38 PM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2013 01:45 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(28-05-2013 02:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Are you saying a pet owner loves cats when they are healthy and well? Are you saying there is no condition where a pet owner can show his love for a cat by causing a cat to suffer?

Does this sound a tad bit insane to you yet?

To answer you and the others who are SURE no suffering can be caused by a loving agent, well:

*My cat suffers when it is given shots at the VET

*Children suffer when they have colds and other diseases that overall build their T and white cell capability and their RESISTANCE

*Few children enjoy reading and doing homework after school. They'd rather play. If Atheists had their way, all suffering, and therefore, all schoolwork, exercise, dieting, abstinence and other healthy lifestyle behaviors would be eliminated.

And if you REALLY cared about MY suffering, you'd all become Christians. Do you not love me because you are so cruel to me and cause my suffering? Do you hate me?

Immunization and antibodies make more sense under evolution than creation. I don't understand why you'd even mention this.

Homework, exercises, dieting, abstinence etc, can be unpleasant. They can also be very pleasant in the results produced by them, and the momentary dislike is worth the work.

However if your are talking about suffering from the barely annoying to children who are born in such a way that they suffer greatly and die, you then have a problem.

Does god use the entire spectrum of suffering for his own ego? And then what responsibility does god have to children who develop cancer, become infested with parasites, contract incurable diseases, become soldiers in war, or are victims of rape?

Finally if you cared about people more than yourself you'd become a researcher.

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30-05-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:Modern Neuro-science has debunked "free will" Decision are made before we are aware of then, consciously.

Pleasy, Madame Zelda said you didn't show up for Sooth-saying (prophecy) class today. She will not allow you to graduate to entrail reading unless you attend every day, and polish your crystal ball in a more timely manner.

BB, are you telling us you've never made one of those "split second decisions" and then changed your initial response consciously? Are you telling me you've never been conflicted over or agonized over a (lack of a) decision?

And are you implying that if decisions are not made consciously and we have no true free will, that you would feel confident asserting that defense in a bedroom or courtroom? ("I couldn't help cheating on you, baby" and "I couldn't stop myself from premeditated murder.")

?!
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30-05-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(30-05-2013 12:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-05-2013 11:34 AM)FYAstronomy Wrote:  That is an assertion with which I disagree. Consider a coma victim on life support. Their existence allows no free will on their part. The same is true in utero. You have no control over how or where you come into existence. You could be born in Africa only to starve to death three days later, or you could be the offspring of a meth addict who's choices in life leave you to deal with severe deformities and mental deficiencies. Free will is an illusion maintained by those who are live long enough to gain emancipation from their parents, of average or better intelligence as well as average or better health. You have no control over things that happen to you by random chance and you can become a prisoner in your own body more easily than we care to admit.

Again, you are not making a logically coherent argument. Not having control of external events has nothing to do with free will.

You seem to be confusing free will with control.

Again, based on my my understanding of the definition of free will, I would disagree. Wikipedia, while hardly an authority on the matter, defines free will as:

....the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors. Factors of historical concern have included metaphysical constraints (such as logical, nomological, or theological determinism), physical constraints (such as chains or imprisonment), social constraints (such as threat of punishment or censure, or structural constraints), and mental constraints (such as compulsions or phobias, neurological disorders, or genetic predispositions).

In this definition, which I do agree with despite the source, your existence automatically takes away free will because physical, social and mental constraints can be placed on you by the location of your birth and the decisions of your parents while you are in gestation.

Quibble over the definition of free will if you wish, but the point remains valid. Making a distinction between control and free will is merely semantics.

Front Yard Astronomy Blog / YouTube

“The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.”
-Ferdinand Magellan
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30-05-2013, 05:08 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(30-05-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Modern Neuro-science has debunked "free will" Decision are made before we are aware of then, consciously.

Pleasy, Madame Zelda said you didn't show up for Sooth-saying (prophecy) class today. She will not allow you to graduate to entrail reading unless you attend every day, and polish your crystal ball in a more timely manner.

BB, are you telling us you've never made one of those "split second decisions" and then changed your initial response consciously? Are you telling me you've never been conflicted over or agonized over a (lack of a) decision?

And are you implying that if decisions are not made consciously and we have no true free will, that you would feel confident asserting that defense in a bedroom or courtroom? ("I couldn't help cheating on you, baby" and "I couldn't stop myself from premeditated murder.")

?!

I would suggest we have limited choice within a largely determined world.

Inrespect to your religious bias an untested infant (post starving slowly to death) just goes to Heaven. Very strange reasoning in terms of God's Christian based rationality.
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31-05-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Quote:Inrespect to your religious bias an untested infant (post starving slowly to death) just goes to Heaven. Very strange reasoning in terms of God's Christian based rationality.

How are Heaven and Hell pure rational choices without the temperance of love? God brings children to Heaven because of love, and not despite their lack of "testing". They are tested and found sinners. God forgives sinners.
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31-05-2013, 11:17 AM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(31-05-2013 11:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  God brings children to Heaven because of love, and not despite their lack of "testing".
Any evidence or proof for this statement?

(31-05-2013 11:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  They are tested and found sinners.
Any evidence or proof for this statement?

(31-05-2013 11:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  God forgives sinners.
Any evidence or proof for this statement?
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04-06-2013, 01:29 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
Any evidence or proof you don't have free will?

Any evidence you do have free will?

Any proof you exist?
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04-06-2013, 04:46 PM
RE: Great Christian Fallacies.
(31-05-2013 11:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Inrespect to your religious bias an untested infant (post starving slowly to death) just goes to Heaven. Very strange reasoning in terms of God's Christian based rationality.

How are Heaven and Hell pure rational choices without the temperance of love? God brings children to Heaven because of love, and not despite their lack of "testing". They are tested and found sinners. God forgives sinners.



Are you kind of arguing from a rather profound position or rather simplistically.
Do you see Jesus as the all and everything. There are over 700 religions in the world along with the off shoots of those. Do you see all atheists, agnostics, Moslems, Hindus,or whatever as eternally damned even if they are genuinely trying to be better people?
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