Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
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30-03-2013, 12:20 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
I think you answered your own question, it's both. Takes us to the moon and flies us into buildings.

"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.” ~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's." - Mark Twain in Eruption
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30-03-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
So what about animals and imagination? Is imagination a type of intelligence?

I have a parrot who gets one walnut a day, at dinner time. It's his favorite food. But, unlike other parrots who just crack it open as fast as possible and let the meat fall out, he laboriously drills a hole in the top and removes just the very top part. Then he carefully removes all the meat, bringing the bottom pieces up with his tongue so his beak can get them. The next day he fills it with his seeds by swishing it through the bowl whenever he feels like eating, and then eats the seed slowly out of the walnut shell. Around an hour before dinner time, he either destroys the shell or throws it on the cage floor (and often poops on it, he would never touch it again).

So what do you think is going through his head? Is he imagining that he gets his favorite food all the time? Obviously this goes beyond just enjoying a walnut. He knows how to ask for walnuts and he frequently says: Walnut, walnut" when he eats from it.

So if a parrot has imagination, and I think if we watch apes and monkeys we also see imagination, do animals in general have it and primates and parrots are just dexterous enough to use it in a way us humans can see?

And is it an extension of intelligence? A sign of learning, stringing facts and ideas together?

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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30-03-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
(30-03-2013 02:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  So what about animals and imagination? Is imagination a type of intelligence?

I have a parrot who gets one walnut a day, at dinner time. It's his favorite food. But, unlike other parrots who just crack it open as fast as possible and let the meat fall out, he laboriously drills a hole in the top and removes just the very top part. Then he carefully removes all the meat, bringing the bottom pieces up with his tongue so his beak can get them. The next day he fills it with his seeds by swishing it through the bowl whenever he feels like eating, and then eats the seed slowly out of the walnut shell. Around an hour before dinner time, he either destroys the shell or throws it on the cage floor (and often poops on it, he would never touch it again).

So what do you think is going through his head? Is he imagining that he gets his favorite food all the time? Obviously this goes beyond just enjoying a walnut. He knows how to ask for walnuts and he frequently says: Walnut, walnut" when he eats from it.

So if a parrot has imagination, and I think if we watch apes and monkeys we also see imagination, do animals in general have it and primates and parrots are just dexterous enough to use it in a way us humans can see?

And is it an extension of intelligence? A sign of learning, stringing facts and ideas together?

Yeah, they have it. Although there is some other component of consciousness that they either lack or have not developed.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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30-03-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
(30-03-2013 02:17 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(30-03-2013 02:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  So what about animals and imagination? Is imagination a type of intelligence?

I have a parrot who gets one walnut a day, at dinner time. It's his favorite food. But, unlike other parrots who just crack it open as fast as possible and let the meat fall out, he laboriously drills a hole in the top and removes just the very top part. Then he carefully removes all the meat, bringing the bottom pieces up with his tongue so his beak can get them. The next day he fills it with his seeds by swishing it through the bowl whenever he feels like eating, and then eats the seed slowly out of the walnut shell. Around an hour before dinner time, he either destroys the shell or throws it on the cage floor (and often poops on it, he would never touch it again).

So what do you think is going through his head? Is he imagining that he gets his favorite food all the time? Obviously this goes beyond just enjoying a walnut. He knows how to ask for walnuts and he frequently says: Walnut, walnut" when he eats from it.

So if a parrot has imagination, and I think if we watch apes and monkeys we also see imagination, do animals in general have it and primates and parrots are just dexterous enough to use it in a way us humans can see?

And is it an extension of intelligence? A sign of learning, stringing facts and ideas together?

Yeah, they have it. Although there is some other component of consciousness that they either lack or have not developed.

Like what?

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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30-03-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
What a coincidence, this has been my desktop background for a couple of weeks. Wink
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I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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30-03-2013, 03:37 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
(30-03-2013 03:18 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(30-03-2013 02:17 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Yeah, they have it. Although there is some other component of consciousness that they either lack or have not developed.

Like what?


Well, either God did it or, I don't know. Big Grin

But seriously, I really don't know. Every time I speculate on something (empathy, for example) I can think of an instance where an animal has displayed that behavior.... albeit in a very subtle way.

One thing I do know though... I want to be a psychologist/biologist or some such when I grow up. Problem is... I'm too old to grow up now. Sadcryface2

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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30-03-2013, 04:22 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
(30-03-2013 03:37 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(30-03-2013 03:18 PM)Dom Wrote:  Like what?


Well, either God did it or, I don't know. Big Grin

But seriously, I really don't know. Every time I speculate on something (empathy, for example) I can think of an instance where an animal has displayed that behavior.... albeit in a very subtle way.

One thing I do know though... I want to be a psychologist/biologist or some such when I grow up. Problem is... I'm too old to grow up now. Sadcryface2

Lol, yeah, that's my issue too, all growed up. Smile

Public opinion has it that animals are not intelligent. A lot of people also think, or say they think, animals have no feelings.

Anything with a central nervous system has feelings, anything with hormones has feelings.

Animals have also proven intelligence.

Basically, I think, we don't know shit - again. Tongue

I think my parrot not only has intelligence, but he also has imagination and it's easy to see because he has the voice and the dexterity to demonstrate that.

Now, if he didn't have a voice that can make human sounds, or the dexterity to manipulate things, we would never see the considerable intelligence in him.

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30-03-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
(30-03-2013 04:22 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(30-03-2013 03:37 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Well, either God did it or, I don't know. Big Grin

But seriously, I really don't know. Every time I speculate on something (empathy, for example) I can think of an instance where an animal has displayed that behavior.... albeit in a very subtle way.

One thing I do know though... I want to be a psychologist/biologist or some such when I grow up. Problem is... I'm too old to grow up now. Sadcryface2

Lol, yeah, that's my issue too, all growed up. Smile

Public opinion has it that animals are not intelligent. A lot of people also think, or say they think, animals have no feelings.

Anything with a central nervous system has feelings, anything with hormones has feelings.

Animals have also proven intelligence.

Basically, I think, we don't know shit - again. Tongue

I think my parrot not only has intelligence, but he also has imagination and it's easy to see because he has the voice and the dexterity to demonstrate that.

Now, if he didn't have a voice that can make human sounds, or the dexterity to manipulate things, we would never see the considerable intelligence in him.

I concur. Animals are much more intelligent than most people give them credit for. We have two dachshunds and they're quite smart. Not as in trained to do stupid tricks smart but actually perceptive and understanding of their environments. They have distinct personalities, preferences and mannerisms and they demonstrate altruistic behavior. The only thing I don't know is where that ability stops or why.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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30-03-2013, 05:44 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
(30-03-2013 04:54 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(30-03-2013 04:22 PM)Dom Wrote:  Lol, yeah, that's my issue too, all growed up. Smile

Public opinion has it that animals are not intelligent. A lot of people also think, or say they think, animals have no feelings.

Anything with a central nervous system has feelings, anything with hormones has feelings.

Animals have also proven intelligence.

Basically, I think, we don't know shit - again. Tongue

I think my parrot not only has intelligence, but he also has imagination and it's easy to see because he has the voice and the dexterity to demonstrate that.

Now, if he didn't have a voice that can make human sounds, or the dexterity to manipulate things, we would never see the considerable intelligence in him.

I concur. Animals are much more intelligent than most people give them credit for. We have two dachshunds and they're quite smart. Not as in trained to do stupid tricks smart but actually perceptive and understanding of their environments. They have distinct personalities, preferences and mannerisms and they demonstrate altruistic behavior. The only thing I don't know is where that ability stops or why.

Dogs think only "straight" while we think "around corners". Meaning that the dog will associate the last thing that happened with what is currently happening. They do not associate something that happened even just 5 minutes ago with the present. There has to be a direct link.

Say your dog is frolicking outside and you call him. He does not come. After a bit you get mad and call him. Still nothing. The third time he comes. By now you are fuming. If you now punish the dog, you are teaching him the opposite of what you want to teach. You are teaching him that if he comes when called, he gets punished. That is the last thing he did before you punished him, so that is the cause of the punishment.

So he has now learned not to come when called. Thousands of dogs have been ruined like that.

Another common example is that you come home to find that your dog chewed up the couch. You are mad and punish him. What has he learned? You are mad when you come home. So now he is scared when you leave, because he will be punished when you come back. He is nervous, so he chews. Ends up at the pound and doesn't know why, except that he failed to keep you at home and let you leave. Thousands of dogs are ruined like that, too.

Dogs only master linear thinking. Our thoughts are much more complex.

That, however, does not address imagination....

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30-03-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: Greatest asset or greatest downfall?
Does the parrot watch you eat?

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