Greeting from a Christian
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28-02-2013, 12:41 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 12:09 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  Okay; I tend to confuse weak and strong atheism; also weak atheism and agnosticism. (See below)
I can assure you that the fault is not on your part, because I have yet to tell you what my precise position concerning the existence of supernatural deities is.

I am an agnostic atheist, which means that while I am neither certain about the existence, nor the non-existence of supernatural deities, I cannot believe in any of them because their existence is not supported by scientific evidence and because none of them have ever revealed themselves to me.

(28-02-2013 12:09 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  Continuing from above, your position is starting to make a bit more sense. So would you say it is permissible to personally believe things for personal or non-empirical reasons, but there is no reason to expect anyone else to share that belief? For example, say I had a dream of flying to Mars. If I therefore made it my life's mission to be one of the first Martian colonists, would you consider that justifiable as long as I didn't also try to convince others to live on Mars or support simply because of my dream?
Yes.

(28-02-2013 12:09 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  Or, put another way, there may be things that are true that can't be verified with science, but there isn't enough general (not personal/anecdotal) evidence to be able to claim to "know" them. Is this an accurate summary?
Yes.

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28-02-2013, 12:50 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 12:41 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I can assure you that the fault is not on your part, because I have yet to tell you what my precise position concerning the existence of supernatural deities is.

I am an agnostic atheist, which means that while I am neither certain about the existence, nor the non-existence of supernatural deities, I cannot believe in any of them because their existence is not supported by scientific evidence and because none of them have ever revealed themselves to me.
Curiosity question: if, theoretically, you knew for sure that no supernatural entities existed (had substantial evidence of strong atheism), would you live any differently (besides presumably showing this evidence to as many theists as possible)?

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28-02-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 12:50 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  Curiosity question: if, theoretically, you knew for sure that no supernatural entities existed (had substantial evidence of strong atheism), would you live any differently (besides presumably showing this evidence to as many theists as possible)?
No.

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28-02-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 12:09 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  If you'll answer one question: what would you say is the difference between being a (weak) atheist and an agnostic? Or are they not mutually exclusive?
To me, a weak Atheist is one doesn't believe in a God.

An agnostic (as a general term, not differentiating between the so-called weak and strong variations) is one who entertains the possibility of a God.

I would say no, they are not mutually exclusive. For example I could say "While I don't believe in a God, I haven't ruled out the possibility."

Both of these contrast with Strong Atheism (i.e. I believe there is no God) and Strong Agnosticism (I believe it's impossible to know whether God exists or not.)

I personally would identify myself as none of the above and say I'm an Igtheist (or Ignostic if you prefer.) I believe you cannot have a meaningful discussion about God without setting some parameters, however I do not believe in the existence of any supernatural deities which I have ever heard of. I certainly do believe that Alexander the Great existed though, and hell, I'd even praise him, he was a real badass.

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28-02-2013, 01:29 PM
Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 10:51 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(27-02-2013 07:00 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Well said!
Sure, well said and all, but both are very much needed. I get that cops don't like IA, and I get that (some) devs don't like QA, but neither group would be as effective without their quality counterparts.

Besides, IA is looking for cops to screw up so they can be punished. I've never heard of IA trying to help cops be better cops - all they do is beat up the bad cops. As a software QA engineer I like to build a better relationship with my developers. I don't punish, I don't belittle, I don't keep score. All I do is help them find flaws in their code so they can fix the flaws and create better code. So far, going on 15 years now and I seem to have good relationships with all the devs I've worked with - they know I'm here to help rather than to destroy.

Then again, who knows what they say behind my back...

Hmmm, I recall finding a sense of humor in you earlier. Perhaps you have none where QA is concerned?

My comments were completely tongue-in-cheek. It's an ongoing joke within our department.

So, joking aside, we strive for the same. Quality is, after all, our goal.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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28-02-2013, 01:37 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
Welcome Darth! Not too happy of the image you out in my head with your username: Martha Stuart is no Jedi. Big Grin

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28-02-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 09:57 AM)DarthMarth Wrote:  Because of these assumptions I consider faith a different, less "hard" way of seeking knowledge while you consider it willful ignorance.

Cardinal Smurf: I didn't see your post, but I may have answered your question as well.
A bit, but not to my satisfaction. So, I'll ask a bit more if you'll indulge me Big Grin :

Do you recall when you began relying on this "easier path" to knowledge? Do you recall why? To what aspects of your life do you apply it? Are you satisfied with the answers you believe it gives you? Why?

Also, and perhaps more importantly, how does it work?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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28-02-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
Now I'm curious:
1. How did you expect me to answer your question?
2. Do you want me to elaborate on the reasoning behind my response or are you satisfied with "no"?

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28-02-2013, 04:55 PM (This post was last modified: 28-02-2013 05:29 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 01:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-02-2013 12:50 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  Curiosity question: if, theoretically, you knew for sure that no supernatural entities existed (had substantial evidence of strong atheism), would you live any differently (besides presumably showing this evidence to as many theists as possible)?
No.

Ditto, my fine young German friend. If anything I'd go even further and say that even if I knew for sure supernatural entities existed, I still wouldn't live any different.

(28-02-2013 09:57 AM)DarthMarth Wrote:  
(28-02-2013 04:07 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Yes.
Well, I would say yes, but it's hard to tell how that would affect my view of God/the Bible. (Though many Christians do interpret the language of "destruction" that way) But yes, I would say that if I knew your beliefs stopped mattering when you die, my faith would probably be more based on ethics and morality (not that it isn't now, but not exclusively), for the reasons I mentioned before.

Aye, thar's the rub, DeathMatch. For me it is based on that exclusively. That's the fundamental difference between us. And it ain't as large a gulf as we tend to make it out to be. Many atheists prefer to discover, develop, and refine their own moral and ethical code instead of blindly following some herd mentality or groupthink. In the end, our systems tend to converge more than diverge and the atheist has the satisfaction of knowing they are following their own individualized code for all the right reasons, the Christian has to trust that the moral and ethical code spoon fed to them by the Church is sound. That said, the Red Letters of the New Testament had a profound influence on Girly's code, every bit as much as the nihilists and existentialists and rationalists. I just think that Christianity totally misses the point of The Word. Dude was showing me how to be my own personal Jeebus, how to save myself.

(28-02-2013 01:29 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(28-02-2013 10:51 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Sure, well said and all, but both are very much needed. I get that cops don't like IA, and I get that (some) devs don't like QA, but neither group would be as effective without their quality counterparts.

Besides, IA is looking for cops to screw up so they can be punished. I've never heard of IA trying to help cops be better cops - all they do is beat up the bad cops. As a software QA engineer I like to build a better relationship with my developers. I don't punish, I don't belittle, I don't keep score. All I do is help them find flaws in their code so they can fix the flaws and create better code. So far, going on 15 years now and I seem to have good relationships with all the devs I've worked with - they know I'm here to help rather than to destroy.

Then again, who knows what they say behind my back...

Hmmm, I recall finding a sense of humor in you earlier. Perhaps you have none where QA is concerned?

My comments were completely tongue-in-cheek. It's an ongoing joke within our department.

So, joking aside, we strive for the same. Quality is, after all, our goal.

I think he was making a joke by reinforcing the stereotype that QA are a bunch of humorless fucks who can't take a joke. Big Grin ... I've worked with some seriously clever testers, they all had more than a little streak of deviousness in them. And the other parts of QA (requirements traceability, documentation, project planning support, bug tracking, managing artifacts, etc.) are tasks that developers would rather not do (and tend not be very good at anyway). We got no friction between our development and testing teams, we just like to tease the shit outta each other ... a lot. Evil_monster

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-02-2013, 05:18 PM
AW: RE: Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 04:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Ditto, my fine young German friend. If anything I'd go even further and say that even if I knew for sure supernatural entities existed, I still wouldn't live any different.
I concur. Yes

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