Greeting from a Christian
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01-03-2013, 07:36 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2013 07:50 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(01-03-2013 07:17 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 03:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I've got another question:

Have you ever read the Qur'an, sacred Hindu texts and other religious scriptures like the Book of Mormon?
Own them, really need to get around to reading them. Blush

Bucky: I enter an Alford plea. Trying to gain ground with you is not worth taking an online Yale course, slogging through walls of text, and being belittled. Good day.

Fullerene is an atheist finishing up seminary school while also pursuing a degree in Physics from USC or maybe UCSD or UCSB or some other fucking Uni in SoCal (if memory serves). ... Dicking with him on the Bible or the history of Christianity is a fool's folly. That said, he's a likeable enough fellow who won't fuck with you as long as you stay off that turf. Dude don't dick much with Girly's peculiar nihilistic metaphysics or being my own personal Jeebus, for example. ... And you really should start your reading list with The Book of Mormon, that shit's fucking hilarious.




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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01-03-2013, 07:56 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2013 08:13 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(01-03-2013 07:17 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 03:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I've got another question:

Have you ever read the Qur'an, sacred Hindu texts and other religious scriptures like the Book of Mormon?
Own them, really need to get around to reading them. Blush

Bucky: I enter an Alford plea. Trying to gain ground with you is not worth taking an online Yale course, slogging through walls of text, and being belittled. Good day.

Whatever. It would behoove you to get an education about your cult.

"The sacrifices of the Old Law contained only in figure that true sacrifice of Christ's Passion", whereas, "it was necessary that the sacrifice of the New Law instituted by Christ should have something more, namely, that it should contain Christ himself crucified, not merely in signification or figure, but also in very truth" (Summa, III, 75, 1, c.).
Thomas Aquinas 1250 CE. (Doctor of the Church, talking about salvation in the Summa Theologica, 500 years before the Reformers.)

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-03-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(28-02-2013 03:43 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(28-02-2013 09:57 AM)DarthMarth Wrote:  Because of these assumptions I consider faith a different, less "hard" way of seeking knowledge while you consider it willful ignorance.

Cardinal Smurf: I didn't see your post, but I may have answered your question as well.
A bit, but not to my satisfaction. So, I'll ask a bit more if you'll indulge me Big Grin :

Do you recall when you began relying on this "easier path" to knowledge? Do you recall why? To what aspects of your life do you apply it? Are you satisfied with the answers you believe it gives you? Why?

Also, and perhaps more importantly, how does it work?
Coming back to an earlier question now that I've had some time to think about it: I realized that I believe in two different kinds of knowledge. I called them "hard" and "soft" before, but "bottom-up" and "top-down" would be better terms. Bottom-up knowledge is gained from what you call scientific skepticism: a gathering of the evidence and rational induction from that evidence to produce knowledge. It understands things in terms of fundamental laws and basic, constituent parts. Top-down knowledge isn't as concerned with the "what" as with the "why". It cannot be attained by breaking a system down and seeking to understand it in terms of the most basic evidences; it unifies the knowledge we have under something intangible and "other" to ourselves, which is what I mean by "meaning". This is the kind of knowledge that my faith is. Yes, you can provide naturalistic explanations for the seven reasons for belief I posted earlier, but to me, those explanations are not enough, even if they answer the question on a physical level. For instance, the occurrence of abiogenesis or the "fine tuning" of physical constants are unremarkable from a scientific perspective; we have precisely measured the constants as what they are and according to the best current theories abiogenesis occurred around 3.9 to 3.5 billion years ago. But this explanation alone is profoundly unsatisfying to me; I instinctively look for a higher one that would explain such "luck".

Religions set themselves up as bodies of this "top-down" knowledge, providing answers to questions that science cannot, like "Why am I here?" or "How should I live?" I am not saying you have no answers to these questions, but I am willing to bet you did not answer them by scientific inquiry but by a series of value judgments, which is the same kind of process that theists use. I think a tenet of materialism is that "top-down" knowledge from outside ourselves is either irrelevant, unattainable, or imaginary; that theists' beliefs are just as arbitrary and less evidence-founded (and therefore superstitious) than your own. Fundamentalists make the opposite mistake of believing that the only knowledge that matters is direct revelation from God and everything else must be made to "fit" into the Bible or church tradition. I believe both are real and important. Thoughts?

"Know that we own minds that could devour the sun/And what we've done will remain although it's gone" - Scar Symmetry
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03-03-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
The *answers* provided by religion seem a bit arbitrary. "Why am I here ?" "To glorify this invisible guy who lives in the sky by singing songs and speaking to him in your head and absolutely not having gay sex".

I mean, I could say "Why am I here?" and you could say "To be a great tap-dancer" and it'd make more sense. I contend that religion does not adequately answer that question or any others.
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03-03-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(03-03-2013 02:38 PM)DarthMarth Wrote:  But this explanation alone is profoundly unsatisfying to me; I instinctively look for a higher one that would explain such "luck".

Religions set themselves up as bodies of this "top-down" knowledge, providing answers to questions that science cannot, like "Why am I here?" or "How should I live?" I am not saying you have no answers to these questions, but I am willing to bet you did not answer them by scientific inquiry but by a series of value judgments, which is the same kind of process that theists use. I think a tenet of materialism is that "top-down" knowledge from outside ourselves is either irrelevant, unattainable, or imaginary; that theists' beliefs are just as arbitrary and less evidence-founded (and therefore superstitious) than your own. Fundamentalists make the opposite mistake of believing that the only knowledge that matters is direct revelation from God and everything else must be made to "fit" into the Bible or church tradition. I believe both are real and important. Thoughts?
That is precisely the problem: you need an answer that just isn't there. You can't accept contingency or happenstance.

Your intuition about 'fine-tuning' is in the same category. But 'fine-tuning' has the cart before the horse. We are fine-tuned to the universe by evolution, not the the universe to us. You can only believe the universe is fine-tuned if you need to be believe we are special.

We are and we aren't. We are apes, apes that evolved from other apes. We're just the smartest apes.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-03-2013, 05:03 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
The universe is so fine-tuned to us, that 95.4% of the universe could not even physically interact with us. Of the 4.6% of the universe that is atomic, >90% of it is stellar or interstellar hydrogen and helium. Of the remaining fraction of a percent, most of it is in interstellar dust and gas, not planets. Of the planets, the vast majority of them are too hot, cold, large, small, or have the wrong atmospheric conditions to support life. Of the one planet we know does support life, humans are excellently adapted to live anywhere on it... except for the 75% covered by oceans, or the deserts or arctics or mountains or disease ridden jungles. Not to mention the 13.7 billion years it took for us to arrive.



You are like a puddle of rain water, marveling at how fine tuned is the hole in the ground in which it collected, and concluding that the entire planet was made solely for you.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
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03-03-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian




There is no such thing as "luck". It's an illusion for those who don't get Probability Theory. Highly improbable events happen all the time.

http://theunconverted.com/the-difference...ntal-dice/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlAx0t9uW...re=related

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ndent-dice

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-03-2013, 09:24 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
Sorry I am late for the questioning, but I have a couple I want to fire off since you seem so eager to answer:

Do you believe that your God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omni-belevolent?

Now, you said you lean towards free well, but how do you justify that position with recent scientific discoveries regarding concious choosing? (This might be a non issue if you don't believe in Concious Free Will)

Do you believe your Bible is "inspired" or "dictated"?

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03-03-2013, 10:59 PM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(03-03-2013 05:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no such thing as "luck". It's an illusion for those who don't get Probability Theory. Highly improbable events happen all the time.


A few years ago RadioLab did this piece on Stochasticity (Randomness) that I bookmarked since I found it so interesting. Basically says that we humans are terrible with numbers and probability or asking the right questions.

http://huffduffer.com/tiffehr/5728


BTW welcome to the forum DearthMath

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-03-2013, 01:09 AM
RE: Greeting from a Christian
(03-03-2013 05:03 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The universe is so fine-tuned to us, that 95.4% of the universe could not even physically interact with us. Of the 4.6% of the universe that is atomic, >90% of it is stellar or interstellar hydrogen and helium. Of the remaining fraction of a percent, most of it is in interstellar dust and gas, not planets. Of the planets, the vast majority of them are too hot, cold, large, small, or have the wrong atmospheric conditions to support life. Of the one planet we know does support life, humans are excellently adapted to live anywhere on it... except for the 75% covered by oceans, or the deserts or arctics or mountains or disease ridden jungles. Not to mention the 13.7 billion years it took for us to arrive.



You are like a puddle of rain water, marveling at how fine tuned is the hole in the ground in which it collected, and concluding that the entire planet was made solely for you.

The life of a black hole is 80 powers of ten longer than the life of our sun. That mean to 80 decimal points, .00000>80 zeros of the life of the universe, there was no life. Zero life, (almost, for the length of the universe) is hardly "fine tuned for life".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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