Grief and Believer Envy
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19-10-2013, 10:32 PM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(19-10-2013 10:13 PM)kim Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 09:57 PM)excubitor Wrote:  What? Do you think you are some kind of moderator do you? I deny that I was insensitive toward a grieving person. In fact I was sympathising with the person that his non-belief system had let him down during his time of grief.
Yes, DL is a moderator. And yes, your insensitivity is very apparent.
Well sorry then DL. I looked around to ensure that you were not a moderator before making my comment but could not see anywhere which tells me that you are a moderator.

(19-10-2013 10:13 PM)kim Wrote:  Arc's not been let down by any system, he's simply grieving the loss of his loved one and your inability to recognize another's humanity is insensitive.

(19-10-2013 09:57 PM)excubitor Wrote:  You are a bunch of hypocrites. Nobody jumped into defend me when I have been horribly and directly abused with the most extreme profanities thrown in. It is so commonplace that people accept it without question. But when one of your own gets a little tickle on his funny bone you all go into spasms of self defence.

Who here offers me any sympathy or sensativity, or stands up for me when I am heartlessly insulted? Hypocrites.

Stop trying to make this thread about you.
I notice you have no answer for my complaint. Weak response on your part.
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19-10-2013, 10:33 PM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
The loss of a loved one is the worst time to get into religious debates.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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19-10-2013, 10:47 PM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(19-10-2013 10:23 PM)ArchAtheistMichael Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 03:54 PM)excubitor Wrote:  There are one billion Catholics who believe that God exists and there are precisely zero people who believe that fairies riding pink unicorns are real. Therefore it is ridiculous to equate the two belief systems.

That should make it extremely easy to prove that there are (with 100% certainty) no fairies riding pink unicorns. After all, both fairies and unicorns are present in religions other than your own. I'll agree, they weren't necessarily pink, but we're not going to hold their color against them are we?
Please provide an example where fairies are present in some religion or another. I know that unicorns are mentioned in the Bible but this does not require us to believe in a horse like creature with a long horn although I cannot think of any reason why we should reject such a possibility. The unicorn of the scriptures may have been quite different to the creature portrayed in a mythical manner in picture books. It may have been a kind of wild ox. Also the references to unicorns are not in any way religious nor are they given in any account of worship or any kind of pagan scenario like the minotaur might be presented. The unicorn is never represented in Greek Mythology but in their writings of natural history it is described alongside descriptions of creatures we know of today. It is clear from this that the ancient Greeks regarded the unicorn as a real creature.

Your reference to unicorns being pink is an obvious half witted way of ridiculing belief in God. Its petty pathetic and really, you can't be serious.

(19-10-2013 10:23 PM)ArchAtheistMichael Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 03:54 PM)excubitor Wrote:  One billion Catholics have very good reasons to believe in the God of the Nicene Creed. I concede that God cannot be proven to exist in the sense that evolutionists use the word, however we believe by faith.

<snip>

So it is impossible to prove God exists on two fronts. The first being that God is supernatural and is invisible to us and cannot be seen through a telescope.

The number of people that believe something doesn't imply that thing is true.
I could not agree more. I did not say that it implied that it was true. We were talking about what is credible. fairies riding pink unicorns is not believed by anybody because it is not credible. Billions of people believe in the Christian God proving that it is a credible belief.

(19-10-2013 10:23 PM)ArchAtheistMichael Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 03:54 PM)excubitor Wrote:  The evidence for Gods existent is there in spades if you have an open mind to see it.

Please elaborate.
Dolphins exist.
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19-10-2013, 11:04 PM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(16-10-2013 11:33 PM)ArchAtheistMichael Wrote:  I don't often find myself in a position where I envy believers, but that's where I found myself last week.

I'm not what I could call "out" about my beliefs. I don't hide them, but I don't make them public either. I just go about my life. The only exception to that rule has been when I'm around my family.

My family are strong believers, and any questions posed by me regarding "The Faith" have been quickly reprimanded. It didn't take long to stop asking, but questions no longer asked don't mean questions no longer had. I lost my faith in silence, and my family has been blissfully unaware for close to 30 years. This has been made easy by distance, as I now live on one side of the country and my family lives on the other.

Last week, my Dad died.

The rest of my family gathered and held hands and said prayers. Of course I was included because my religious status is unknown to them, but it didn't make me feel like any less the outsider. There were constant allusions to my father being an angel, stories about what he must have said when he met Saint Peter, and questions about what kind of mischief he and his brother and sister are getting into right at that moment.

I think that thinking Dad is just somewhere else and he's happy makes the grief easier for them to deal with. He was a man of faith, so he must be in Heaven.

Of course, I don't believe that. There is no God. There is no Heaven. My Dad is gone. Forever.

I admit that I'm more than a little jealous of my family in this case. I wish what they believed were true. If it was true, he'd be somewhere else, and he'd be happy. The Universe would feel like a better place for me knowing that he was still in it, somewhere. That would make me happy even though I'd be destined for Hell.


I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I've not yet had to deal with the loss of a parent, but did lose grandparents close to me. The funeral service and family gatherings afterward are about those still living and their grief. For us non-believers, I think it is important to acknowledge that some need to grieve by relying on their religious beliefs. Thinking back about what made the recently deceased who they were, and talking about the impact they had on everyone's lives made me feel like I could connect with everyone as they shared their thoughts, some religious, some not.

Even though I didn't believe the religious sentiments, I didn't really feel like I was being excluded when people brought those ideas up. In those moments, nobody is saying religious things with thought of malice or intent to proselytize. And those who love the one who passed away, will naturally follow the conversation to memories and reminiscences you bring up. You can still have those conversations with your family if you didn't happen to have them on the day of the funeral.

I gave the eulogy for a grandmother I was close to who passed a few years ago. While I was delivering the remarks I prepared, I found myself actually able to feel joy about the memories I brought up. After my remarks, some lady who was a stranger to me stood in the back of the church and relayed a story about my grandmother based on my remarks. Despite it being somewhat a break in decorum, nothing made me happier than to know that my grandmother made an impact on those in her life. My grandmother didn't do anything heroic to cause this person to speak up--she just really, really, really liked dessert (to the exclusion of the main meal), and that started the whole church thinking about my grandmother's life rather than just about angels and god.

The idea of my grandmother floating around doesn't give me comfort. Right now she has no experience at all, good or bad. She cannot lament that she is not around anymore. Not all who pass go through this, but she suffered at the end of her life. I was relieved that she no longer had to experience that anymore. And even now, what give's me joy, even laughter, is the memory that she really, really, really liked dessert. That, and of course other memories, is what gives me comfort.
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19-10-2013, 11:07 PM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(19-10-2013 11:04 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(16-10-2013 11:33 PM)ArchAtheistMichael Wrote:  I don't often find myself in a position where I envy believers, but that's where I found myself last week.

I'm not what I could call "out" about my beliefs. I don't hide them, but I don't make them public either. I just go about my life. The only exception to that rule has been when I'm around my family.

My family are strong believers, and any questions posed by me regarding "The Faith" have been quickly reprimanded. It didn't take long to stop asking, but questions no longer asked don't mean questions no longer had. I lost my faith in silence, and my family has been blissfully unaware for close to 30 years. This has been made easy by distance, as I now live on one side of the country and my family lives on the other.

Last week, my Dad died.

The rest of my family gathered and held hands and said prayers. Of course I was included because my religious status is unknown to them, but it didn't make me feel like any less the outsider. There were constant allusions to my father being an angel, stories about what he must have said when he met Saint Peter, and questions about what kind of mischief he and his brother and sister are getting into right at that moment.

I think that thinking Dad is just somewhere else and he's happy makes the grief easier for them to deal with. He was a man of faith, so he must be in Heaven.

Of course, I don't believe that. There is no God. There is no Heaven. My Dad is gone. Forever.

I admit that I'm more than a little jealous of my family in this case. I wish what they believed were true. If it was true, he'd be somewhere else, and he'd be happy. The Universe would feel like a better place for me knowing that he was still in it, somewhere. That would make me happy even though I'd be destined for Hell.


I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I've not yet had to deal with the loss of a parent, but did lose grandparents close to me. The funeral service and family gatherings afterward are about those still living and their grief. For us non-believers, I think it is important to acknowledge that some need to grieve by relying on their religious beliefs. Thinking back about what made the recently deceased who they were, and talking about the impact they had on everyone's lives made me feel like I could connect with everyone as they shared their thoughts, some religious, some not.

Even though I didn't believe the religious sentiments, I didn't really feel like I was being excluded when people brought those ideas up. In those moments, nobody is saying religious things with thought of malice or intent to proselytize. And those who love the one who passed away, will naturally follow the conversation to memories and reminiscences you bring up. You can still have those conversations with your family if you didn't happen to have them on the day of the funeral.

I gave the eulogy for a grandmother I was close to who passed a few years ago. While I was delivering the remarks I prepared, I found myself actually able to feel joy about the memories I brought up. After my remarks, some lady who was a stranger to me stood in the back of the church and relayed a story about my grandmother based on my remarks. Despite it being somewhat a break in decorum, nothing made me happier than to know that my grandmother made an impact on those in her life. My grandmother didn't do anything heroic to cause this person to speak up--she just really, really, really liked dessert (to the exclusion of the main meal), and that started the whole church thinking about my grandmother's life rather than just about angels and god.

The idea of my grandmother floating around doesn't give me comfort. Right now she has no experience at all, good or bad. She cannot lament that she is not around anymore. Not all who pass go through this, but she suffered at the end of her life. I was relieved that she no longer had to experience that anymore. And even now, what give's me joy, even laughter, is the memory that she really, really, really liked dessert. That, and of course other memories, is what gives me comfort.

Very cool and what it's all about, remembering a person as they lived. I also heard some interesting stories about dad when he died...spontaneous sharing from his friends and their wives. Those are good memories to have passed to you.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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20-10-2013, 02:25 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(19-10-2013 10:47 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Please provide an example where fairies are present in some religion or another.

Really? Seriously? They're present in some Christian mythology. It's believed by some that they're "demoted" angels, and by others that they're the angels that were caught outside of heaven or hell during Satan's revolt.

(19-10-2013 10:47 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Your reference to unicorns being pink is an obvious half witted way of ridiculing belief in God.

Quite the contrary, it's a half witted way of me pointing out your claim that Dawkins admitting that he had not 100% proved that God does not exist was stupid. You can't even prove that fairies on pink unicorns don't exist.

(19-10-2013 10:47 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Its petty pathetic and really, you can't be serious.

I'm very serious.

(19-10-2013 10:47 PM)excubitor Wrote:  fairies riding pink unicorns is not believed by anybody because it is not credible. Billions of people believe in the Christian God proving that it is a credible belief.

It's a demonstration of where burden of proof lies. It would be unreasonable for me to think that it's your duty to disprove fairies on pink unicorns just as it's unreasonable for you to expect me to disprove your deity. Instead, it's my responsibility to prove that there are fairies riding pink unicorns (spoilers: There are no fairies riding pink Unicorns) and it's your responsibility to prove that your God exists.

(19-10-2013 10:47 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Dolphins exist.

I'd ask you elaborate further, because that sounds like a valiant attempt at a joke, but I think instead that I'm going to heed the advice from Anjele and step out of this one. It probably wasn't the smartest thing I've done recently engaging at this time. Some other time perhaps I can hear your evidence regarding dolphins.
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20-10-2013, 02:40 AM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2013 02:43 AM by excubitor.)
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(19-10-2013 11:04 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(16-10-2013 11:33 PM)ArchAtheistMichael Wrote:  I don't often find myself in a position where I envy believers, but that's where I found myself last week.

I'm not what I could call "out" about my beliefs. I don't hide them, but I don't make them public either. I just go about my life. The only exception to that rule has been when I'm around my family.

My family are strong believers, and any questions posed by me regarding "The Faith" have been quickly reprimanded. It didn't take long to stop asking, but questions no longer asked don't mean questions no longer had. I lost my faith in silence, and my family has been blissfully unaware for close to 30 years. This has been made easy by distance, as I now live on one side of the country and my family lives on the other.

Last week, my Dad died.

The rest of my family gathered and held hands and said prayers. Of course I was included because my religious status is unknown to them, but it didn't make me feel like any less the outsider. There were constant allusions to my father being an angel, stories about what he must have said when he met Saint Peter, and questions about what kind of mischief he and his brother and sister are getting into right at that moment.

I think that thinking Dad is just somewhere else and he's happy makes the grief easier for them to deal with. He was a man of faith, so he must be in Heaven.

Of course, I don't believe that. There is no God. There is no Heaven. My Dad is gone. Forever.

I admit that I'm more than a little jealous of my family in this case. I wish what they believed were true. If it was true, he'd be somewhere else, and he'd be happy. The Universe would feel like a better place for me knowing that he was still in it, somewhere. That would make me happy even though I'd be destined for Hell.


I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I've not yet had to deal with the loss of a parent, but did lose grandparents close to me. The funeral service and family gatherings afterward are about those still living and their grief. For us non-believers, I think it is important to acknowledge that some need to grieve by relying on their religious beliefs. Thinking back about what made the recently deceased who they were, and talking about the impact they had on everyone's lives made me feel like I could connect with everyone as they shared their thoughts, some religious, some not.

Even though I didn't believe the religious sentiments, I didn't really feel like I was being excluded when people brought those ideas up. In those moments, nobody is saying religious things with thought of malice or intent to proselytize. And those who love the one who passed away, will naturally follow the conversation to memories and reminiscences you bring up. You can still have those conversations with your family if you didn't happen to have them on the day of the funeral.

I gave the eulogy for a grandmother I was close to who passed a few years ago. While I was delivering the remarks I prepared, I found myself actually able to feel joy about the memories I brought up. After my remarks, some lady who was a stranger to me stood in the back of the church and relayed a story about my grandmother based on my remarks. Despite it being somewhat a break in decorum, nothing made me happier than to know that my grandmother made an impact on those in her life. My grandmother didn't do anything heroic to cause this person to speak up--she just really, really, really liked dessert (to the exclusion of the main meal), and that started the whole church thinking about my grandmother's life rather than just about angels and god.

The idea of my grandmother floating around doesn't give me comfort. Right now she has no experience at all, good or bad. She cannot lament that she is not around anymore. Not all who pass go through this, but she suffered at the end of her life. I was relieved that she no longer had to experience that anymore. And even now, what give's me joy, even laughter, is the memory that she really, really, really liked dessert. That, and of course other memories, is what gives me comfort.
This post reminds me of a gross disorder of modern culture where funerals instead of being places of grief and sorrow have become "celebrations" of the deceased persons life. Football songs get played and everyone has to try and figure out what his/her favourite song was. Funny anecdotes have to thought up, some of which are actually discrediting of the deceased person.

It is essential to human well being to grieve and mourn at the loss of someone loved. That is what funerals are for so that people can mourn in a proper healthy manner. Funerals used to be accompanied by mournful music called dirges such as Dies Irae



The funeral was never a place to go to be comforted. It was there to bring out our sorrow so that we would properly express it. It was a place where we would be warned that all of our lives are temporary and that on the day of the death and the second coming of our Lord we would meet our maker and our judge to give an account. Funerals are there to teach us to amend our lives, repent and turn to a life of holiness.

Dies iræ! Dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla:
Teste David cum Sibylla!

Day of wrath and doom impending,
David’s word with Sibyl’s blending,
Heaven and earth in ashes ending!

Oh, what fear man's bosom rendeth,
When from heaven the Judge descendeth,
On whose sentence all dependeth.

Wondrous sound the trumpet flingeth;
Through earth's sepulchres it ringeth;
All before the throne it bringeth.

Death is struck, and nature quaking,
All creation is awaking,
To its Judge an answer making

Lo! the book, exactly worded,
Wherein all hath been recorded:
Thence shall judgement be awarded.

When the Judge his seat attaineth,
And each hidden deed arraigneth,
Nothing unavenged remaineth.

What shall I, frail man, be pleading?
Who for me be interceding,
When the just are mercy needing?

King of Majesty tremendous,
Who dost free salvation send us,
Fount of pity, then befriend us!

Think, kind Jesu!–my salvation
Caused thy wondrous Incarnation;
Leave me not to reprobation!

Faint and weary, Thou hast sought me,
On the Cross of suffering bought me.
Shall such grace be vainly brought me?

Righteous Judge! for sin's pollution
Grant Thy gift of absolution,
Ere the day of retribution.

Guilty, now I pour my moaning,
All my shame with anguish owning;
Spare, O God, Thy suppliant groaning!

Through the sinful woman shriven,
Through the dying Thief forgiven,
Thou to me a hope hast given

Through the sinful woman shriven,
Through the dying Thief forgiven,
Thou to me a hope hast given

Worthless are my prayers and sighing,
Yet, Good Lord, in grace complying,
Rescue me from fires undying!

With Thy sheep a place provide me,
From the goats afar divide me,
To Thy right hand do Thou guide me.

While the wicked are confounded,
Doomed to flames of woe unbounded
Call me with thy saints surrounded.

Low I kneel, with heart submission,
See, like ashes, my contrition;
Help me in my last condition

h! that day of tears and mourning!
From the dust of earth returning
Man for judgement must prepare him;
Spare, O God, in mercy spare him!

Lord, all-pitying, Jesus blest,
Grant them thine eternal rest. Amen


Incredible stuff. Packed with meaning and Catholic doctrine.

Now at funerals we get the most banal of football songs and pop songs. Its a disgrace. We have become a nation of morons.
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20-10-2013, 02:54 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
Wow I didn't know my mobile could screen scroll that many times.

When someone loses another their whole world is grief, a celebration of the deceaseds life through stories, slide shows and music honours what they accomplished in life. And from my own personal experience and observing others is a contentfull conclusion to move on without them.

Morbid postulating to the unproven psychopathic gatekeeper of the bible fables does not honour someone's life.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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20-10-2013, 03:40 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(19-10-2013 03:54 PM)excubitor Wrote:  There are one billion Catholics who believe that God exists and there are precisely zero people who believe that fairies riding pink unicorns are real. Therefore it is ridiculous to equate the two belief systems.

My wife tells me that in her native country many of the people believe in fairies. She comes from a third world village/small town. She never mentioned pink unicorns though.
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20-10-2013, 04:00 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 02:40 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The funeral was never a place to go to be comforted. It was there to bring out our sorrow so that we would properly express it. It was a place where we would be warned that all of our lives are temporary and that on the day of the death and the second coming of our Lord we would meet our maker and our judge to give an account. Funerals are there to teach us to amend our lives, repent and turn to a life of holiness.

I know what you mean....I can't stand "happy" funerals. What I mean by that is funerals where they go out the way to try to make it "happy". When my dad died it was sad, but there were moments of happiness that just happened.
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