Grief and Believer Envy
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20-10-2013, 04:09 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 02:40 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 11:04 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I've not yet had to deal with the loss of a parent, but did lose grandparents close to me. The funeral service and family gatherings afterward are about those still living and their grief. For us non-believers, I think it is important to acknowledge that some need to grieve by relying on their religious beliefs. Thinking back about what made the recently deceased who they were, and talking about the impact they had on everyone's lives made me feel like I could connect with everyone as they shared their thoughts, some religious, some not.

Even though I didn't believe the religious sentiments, I didn't really feel like I was being excluded when people brought those ideas up. In those moments, nobody is saying religious things with thought of malice or intent to proselytize. And those who love the one who passed away, will naturally follow the conversation to memories and reminiscences you bring up. You can still have those conversations with your family if you didn't happen to have them on the day of the funeral.

I gave the eulogy for a grandmother I was close to who passed a few years ago. While I was delivering the remarks I prepared, I found myself actually able to feel joy about the memories I brought up. After my remarks, some lady who was a stranger to me stood in the back of the church and relayed a story about my grandmother based on my remarks. Despite it being somewhat a break in decorum, nothing made me happier than to know that my grandmother made an impact on those in her life. My grandmother didn't do anything heroic to cause this person to speak up--she just really, really, really liked dessert (to the exclusion of the main meal), and that started the whole church thinking about my grandmother's life rather than just about angels and god.

The idea of my grandmother floating around doesn't give me comfort. Right now she has no experience at all, good or bad. She cannot lament that she is not around anymore. Not all who pass go through this, but she suffered at the end of her life. I was relieved that she no longer had to experience that anymore. And even now, what give's me joy, even laughter, is the memory that she really, really, really liked dessert. That, and of course other memories, is what gives me comfort.
This post reminds me of a gross disorder of modern culture where funerals instead of being places of grief and sorrow have become "celebrations" of the deceased persons life. Football songs get played and everyone has to try and figure out what his/her favourite song was. Funny anecdotes have to thought up, some of which are actually discrediting of the deceased person.

It is essential to human well being to grieve and mourn at the loss of someone loved. That is what funerals are for so that people can mourn in a proper healthy manner. Funerals used to be accompanied by mournful music called dirges such as Dies Irae



The funeral was never a place to go to be comforted. It was there to bring out our sorrow so that we would properly express it. It was a place where we would be warned that all of our lives are temporary and that on the day of the death and the second coming of our Lord we would meet our maker and our judge to give an account. Funerals are there to teach us to amend our lives, repent and turn to a life of holiness.

Dies iræ! Dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla:
Teste David cum Sibylla!

Day of wrath and doom impending,
David’s word with Sibyl’s blending,
Heaven and earth in ashes ending!

Oh, what fear man's bosom rendeth,
When from heaven the Judge descendeth,
On whose sentence all dependeth.

Wondrous sound the trumpet flingeth;
Through earth's sepulchres it ringeth;
All before the throne it bringeth.

Death is struck, and nature quaking,
All creation is awaking,
To its Judge an answer making

Lo! the book, exactly worded,
Wherein all hath been recorded:
Thence shall judgement be awarded.

When the Judge his seat attaineth,
And each hidden deed arraigneth,
Nothing unavenged remaineth.

What shall I, frail man, be pleading?
Who for me be interceding,
When the just are mercy needing?

King of Majesty tremendous,
Who dost free salvation send us,
Fount of pity, then befriend us!

Think, kind Jesu!–my salvation
Caused thy wondrous Incarnation;
Leave me not to reprobation!

Faint and weary, Thou hast sought me,
On the Cross of suffering bought me.
Shall such grace be vainly brought me?

Righteous Judge! for sin's pollution
Grant Thy gift of absolution,
Ere the day of retribution.

Guilty, now I pour my moaning,
All my shame with anguish owning;
Spare, O God, Thy suppliant groaning!

Through the sinful woman shriven,
Through the dying Thief forgiven,
Thou to me a hope hast given

Through the sinful woman shriven,
Through the dying Thief forgiven,
Thou to me a hope hast given

Worthless are my prayers and sighing,
Yet, Good Lord, in grace complying,
Rescue me from fires undying!

With Thy sheep a place provide me,
From the goats afar divide me,
To Thy right hand do Thou guide me.

While the wicked are confounded,
Doomed to flames of woe unbounded
Call me with thy saints surrounded.

Low I kneel, with heart submission,
See, like ashes, my contrition;
Help me in my last condition

h! that day of tears and mourning!
From the dust of earth returning
Man for judgement must prepare him;
Spare, O God, in mercy spare him!

Lord, all-pitying, Jesus blest,
Grant them thine eternal rest. Amen


Incredible stuff. Packed with meaning and Catholic doctrine.

Now at funerals we get the most banal of football songs and pop songs. Its a disgrace. We have become a nation of morons.

Really, I shall never understand why religious people seem to think that quoting large swathes of biblical bollocks is going to sway an atheist in his or her belief.
The only person who should decide how their funeral goes is the person who has died - everyone should discuss or write in their will how they want their funeral to be conducted and, in the absence of such a document, their close friends and family should consider how best any service would fit with that person't beliefs. If I thought for one minute that there would be any mention of god or jesus or any other mythical being at my funeral I may be inclined to spontaneously combust!!
My mother, on the other hand is religious (not ridiculously so but she does believe) and she will have a religious funeral inspite of my own atheism. She will have what she wants when she dies and neither you nor a minister or priest of whatever will dictate that to me or the rest of my family.
I'm sorry for the loss of your father; I know what a life changing thing this can be and I can only tell you that you will come to terms with it one day, in your own time. You will never forget him and you will miss him every day. Thinking of you.
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20-10-2013, 04:36 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 04:09 AM)englishrose Wrote:  Really, I shall never understand why religious people seem to think that quoting large swathes of biblical bollocks is going to sway an atheist in his or her belief.
The only person who should decide how their funeral goes is the person who has died - everyone should discuss or write in their will how they want their funeral to be conducted and, in the absence of such a document, their close friends and family should consider how best any service would fit with that person't beliefs.

When I die, I could care less about what they do with the formerly mine body.
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20-10-2013, 04:45 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 02:54 AM)sporehux Wrote:  Wow I didn't know my mobile could screen scroll that many times.

When someone loses another their whole world is grief, a celebration of the deceaseds life through stories, slide shows and music honours what they accomplished in life. And from my own personal experience and observing others is a contentfull conclusion to move on without them.

Morbid postulating to the unproven psychopathic gatekeeper of the bible fables does not honour someone's life.
Like I said. This is how messed up modern society is. You cannot even be morbid at a funeral. The time to honour someones life is while they are still alive. Like at retirement or at the 70th or 80th birthday party where they can enjoy the accolades. The funeral is not the proper place for such a commemoration. In the days gone by people met in the family home of the deceased, consoled the grieving relatives, ate cucumber sandwiches and drank tea before going home. Over the coming week they dropped off casseroles. They might have consoled the widow with a few words like Yeah Jim was a good bloke ay! Now we have to burden the family with putting together a slideshow of his life. Ghastly days.

The eulogy is the scourge of modern funerals and often contain gross error and ignorance about the afterlife and the state of the persons soul after death.

Quote:Here are some guidelines for Catholic funerals
I heard somewhere that a layperson cannot deliver a eulogy at a funeral Mass. Are there any circumstances in which it would be acceptable?
Answer

According to the Order of Christian Funerals, there is never to be a eulogy at a funeral Mass (OCF 27), although the celebrant may express a few words of gratitude about the person’s life in his homily, or he may allow a relative or a friend to say a few words about the deceased during the concluding rite (GIRM 89). The remarks must be brief and under no circumstances can the deceased person be referred to as being in heaven. Only the Church has the authority to canonize.

Contrary to common assumption, the purpose of the funeral Mass is not to celebrate the life of the deceased but to offer worship to God for Christ’s victory over death, to comfort the mourners with prayers, and to pray for the soul of the deceased. Relatives or friends who wish to speak of the deceased’s character and accomplishments can do so at a prayer service to be held in a home or funeral home or at the graveside following the rite of committal.
What a relief that we have the church to moderate our behaviour. And what a tragedy it is when men cast off the church and construct funerals each one doing what is right in his own eyes.
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20-10-2013, 04:54 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 04:45 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Like I said. This is how messed up modern society is. You cannot even be morbid at a funeral. The time to honour someones life is while they are still alive. Like at retirement or at the 70th or 80th birthday party where they can enjoy the accolades. The funeral is not the proper place for such a commemoration. In the days gone by people met in the family home of the deceased, consoled the grieving relatives, ate cucumber sandwiches and drank tea before going home. Over the coming week they dropped off casseroles. They might have consoled the widow with a few words like Yeah Jim was a good bloke ay! Now we have to burden the family with putting together a slideshow of his life. Ghastly days.

I second this.
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20-10-2013, 04:57 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 04:09 AM)englishrose Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 02:40 AM)excubitor Wrote:  This post reminds me of a gross disorder of modern culture where funerals instead of being places of grief and sorrow have become "celebrations" of the deceased persons life. Football songs get played and everyone has to try and figure out what his/her favourite song was. Funny anecdotes have to thought up, some of which are actually discrediting of the deceased person.

It is essential to human well being to grieve and mourn at the loss of someone loved. That is what funerals are for so that people can mourn in a proper healthy manner. Funerals used to be accompanied by mournful music called dirges such as Dies Irae



The funeral was never a place to go to be comforted. It was there to bring out our sorrow so that we would properly express it. It was a place where we would be warned that all of our lives are temporary and that on the day of the death and the second coming of our Lord we would meet our maker and our judge to give an account. Funerals are there to teach us to amend our lives, repent and turn to a life of holiness.

Dies iræ! Dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla:
Teste David cum Sibylla!

Day of wrath and doom impending,
David’s word with Sibyl’s blending,
Heaven and earth in ashes ending!

Oh, what fear man's bosom rendeth,
When from heaven the Judge descendeth,
On whose sentence all dependeth.

Wondrous sound the trumpet flingeth;
Through earth's sepulchres it ringeth;
All before the throne it bringeth.

Death is struck, and nature quaking,
All creation is awaking,
To its Judge an answer making

Lo! the book, exactly worded,
Wherein all hath been recorded:
Thence shall judgement be awarded.

When the Judge his seat attaineth,
And each hidden deed arraigneth,
Nothing unavenged remaineth.

What shall I, frail man, be pleading?
Who for me be interceding,
When the just are mercy needing?

King of Majesty tremendous,
Who dost free salvation send us,
Fount of pity, then befriend us!

Think, kind Jesu!–my salvation
Caused thy wondrous Incarnation;
Leave me not to reprobation!

Faint and weary, Thou hast sought me,
On the Cross of suffering bought me.
Shall such grace be vainly brought me?

Righteous Judge! for sin's pollution
Grant Thy gift of absolution,
Ere the day of retribution.

Guilty, now I pour my moaning,
All my shame with anguish owning;
Spare, O God, Thy suppliant groaning!

Through the sinful woman shriven,
Through the dying Thief forgiven,
Thou to me a hope hast given

Through the sinful woman shriven,
Through the dying Thief forgiven,
Thou to me a hope hast given

Worthless are my prayers and sighing,
Yet, Good Lord, in grace complying,
Rescue me from fires undying!

With Thy sheep a place provide me,
From the goats afar divide me,
To Thy right hand do Thou guide me.

While the wicked are confounded,
Doomed to flames of woe unbounded
Call me with thy saints surrounded.

Low I kneel, with heart submission,
See, like ashes, my contrition;
Help me in my last condition

h! that day of tears and mourning!
From the dust of earth returning
Man for judgement must prepare him;
Spare, O God, in mercy spare him!

Lord, all-pitying, Jesus blest,
Grant them thine eternal rest. Amen


Incredible stuff. Packed with meaning and Catholic doctrine.

Now at funerals we get the most banal of football songs and pop songs. Its a disgrace. We have become a nation of morons.

Really, I shall never understand why religious people seem to think that quoting large swathes of biblical bollocks is going to sway an atheist in his or her belief.
The only person who should decide how their funeral goes is the person who has died - everyone should discuss or write in their will how they want their funeral to be conducted and, in the absence of such a document, their close friends and family should consider how best any service would fit with that person't beliefs.
Where did I say any different. I never objected to a human right to choose the type of funeral they want. If somebody wants a funeral service (requiem mass) in the Catholic church then they must abide by the rules of the Catholic church. Non-catholics may not in ordinary circumstances have a Catholic funeral. So obviously there are a lot of non-Catholics who have to have secular funerals. I am merely pointing out that secular funerals have taken a major shift in even the last 15 years whereby funerals have slowly been turned into celebrations. I am merely pointing out that this is utterly messed up and robs the grieving relatives of the chance to mourn as they deserve. How must it feel for a widow whose heart is torn in two to be in a crowd of people laughing and celebrating. When you are grieving you want the people around you to grieve also. To share in someones grief is an expression of love.

This is the community of love which is the church. When one suffers the whole body suffers.
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20-10-2013, 05:22 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 04:45 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Like I said. This is how messed up modern society is. You cannot even be morbid at a funeral. The time to honour someones life is while they are still alive. Like at retirement or at the 70th or 80th birthday party where they can enjoy the accolades.

So you have a calendar for all your friends and relatives death dates, how convenient,
You are the reason this forum de-converts people
Good job articulating the absurdity of Theism.

FYI the comment about scrolling the screen was a little vague. So let me clarify. "STOP QUOTING LARGE AREAS" And also quoting yourself does not strengthen your arguments.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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20-10-2013, 05:30 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 04:57 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 04:09 AM)englishrose Wrote:  Really, I shall never understand why religious people seem to think that quoting large swathes of biblical bollocks is going to sway an atheist in his or her belief.
The only person who should decide how their funeral goes is the person who has died - everyone should discuss or write in their will how they want their funeral to be conducted and, in the absence of such a document, their close friends and family should consider how best any service would fit with that person't beliefs.
Where did I say any different. I never objected to a human right to choose the type of funeral they want. If somebody wants a funeral service (requiem mass) in the Catholic church then they must abide by the rules of the Catholic church. Non-catholics may not in ordinary circumstances have a Catholic funeral. So obviously there are a lot of non-Catholics who have to have secular funerals. I am merely pointing out that secular funerals have taken a major shift in even the last 15 years whereby funerals have slowly been turned into celebrations. I am merely pointing out that this is utterly messed up and robs the grieving relatives of the chance to mourn as they deserve. How must it feel for a widow whose heart is torn in two to be in a crowd of people laughing and celebrating. When you are grieving you want the people around you to grieve also. To share in someones grief is an expression of love.

This is the community of love which is the church. When one suffers the whole body suffers.
It is up to the widow to decide how she wants the funeral to go if she does not have instructions from her husband.
I personally would not like to have a football song at my funeral but I don't want 'Heavenly fathers' or whatever either and that is up to me.
Catholics do not have the monopoly on respect for the living or the dead, nor on love nor on suffering.
I should imagine there are very few people who would laugh and be jolly at a funeral out of respect for those left behind.
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20-10-2013, 05:36 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 04:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 04:09 AM)englishrose Wrote:  Really, I shall never understand why religious people seem to think that quoting large swathes of biblical bollocks is going to sway an atheist in his or her belief.
The only person who should decide how their funeral goes is the person who has died - everyone should discuss or write in their will how they want their funeral to be conducted and, in the absence of such a document, their close friends and family should consider how best any service would fit with that person't beliefs.

When I die, I could care less about what they do with the formerly mine body.

I wasn't actually referring to what happens to the body, I was referring to how one's funeral is conducted.
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20-10-2013, 06:23 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 05:30 AM)englishrose Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 04:57 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Where did I say any different. I never objected to a human right to choose the type of funeral they want. If somebody wants a funeral service (requiem mass) in the Catholic church then they must abide by the rules of the Catholic church. Non-catholics may not in ordinary circumstances have a Catholic funeral. So obviously there are a lot of non-Catholics who have to have secular funerals. I am merely pointing out that secular funerals have taken a major shift in even the last 15 years whereby funerals have slowly been turned into celebrations. I am merely pointing out that this is utterly messed up and robs the grieving relatives of the chance to mourn as they deserve. How must it feel for a widow whose heart is torn in two to be in a crowd of people laughing and celebrating. When you are grieving you want the people around you to grieve also. To share in someones grief is an expression of love.

This is the community of love which is the church. When one suffers the whole body suffers.
It is up to the widow to decide how she wants the funeral to go if she does not have instructions from her husband.
I personally would not like to have a football song at my funeral but I don't want 'Heavenly fathers' or whatever either and that is up to me.
Catholics do not have the monopoly on respect for the living or the dead, nor on love nor on suffering.
I should imagine there are very few people who would laugh and be jolly at a funeral out of respect for those left behind.
"That is up to me". And that basically says it all. Every man gets to choose what is right in his or her own eyes. This is the mantra of the atheist. This is why he casts away the church and God, because it is "Up to me" how I live my life and I am not going to have any pesky God or annoying church try to tell me what to do with MY.

To be a Christian is to submit to the authority of the church. What the church has a monopoly on is vast experience gathered over 2000 years of how things should be done, what works and what does not work. The church gives commands not for our harm but so that we might live life abundantly, so that we may know how to consider death and what it means for all of us, so that we may know what to expect at the judgement day and those things which are necessary for us to find favour from our Lord at the judgement.

Spurn such wisdom at your peril. Humble yourself and obey the rule of the bishops and you will find peace and rest for your soul. How can one man in his own lifetime assemble sufficient wisdom from his peer group to know how to live his life? To neglect or even reject the wisdom of the ages come from the prophets, the apostles, the saints and the great teachers of the church is a folly almost breathtaking in its audacity. Yet people cannot see this because they lack wisdom.

So I say to you Get wisdom. But you do not get wisdom because you do not value it. Therefore the scriptures says.
"Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?"

Wisdom is hard earned. Its cost is very high even to the submitting of the arrogance of selfish pride, a form of death to the proud, but essential for the getting of wisdom. But the fool can see no lack in himself, he places no value on wisdom, he scarce can imagine that another person could impart wisdom to him that he has not already attained himself. He makes no sacrifice therefore to obtain wisdom. So he dies the way he lived with his dying breath saying "Its up to me".
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20-10-2013, 06:28 AM
RE: Grief and Believer Envy
(20-10-2013 06:23 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(20-10-2013 05:30 AM)englishrose Wrote:  It is up to the widow to decide how she wants the funeral to go if she does not have instructions from her husband.
I personally would not like to have a football song at my funeral but I don't want 'Heavenly fathers' or whatever either and that is up to me.
Catholics do not have the monopoly on respect for the living or the dead, nor on love nor on suffering.
I should imagine there are very few people who would laugh and be jolly at a funeral out of respect for those left behind.
"That is up to me". And that basically says it all. Every man gets to choose what is right in his or her own eyes. This is the mantra of the atheist. This is why he casts away the church and God, because it is "Up to me" how I live my life and I am not going to have any pesky God or annoying church try to tell me what to do with MY.

To be a Christian is to submit to the authority of the church. What the church has a monopoly on is vast experience gathered over 2000 years of how things should be done, what works and what does not work. The church gives commands not for our harm but so that we might live life abundantly, so that we may know how to consider death and what it means for all of us, so that we may know what to expect at the judgement day and those things which are necessary for us to find favour from our Lord at the judgement.

Spurn such wisdom at your peril. Humble yourself and obey the rule of the bishops and you will find peace and rest for your soul. How can one man in his own lifetime assemble sufficient wisdom from his peer group to know how to live his life? To neglect or even reject the wisdom of the ages come from the prophets, the apostles, the saints and the great teachers of the church is a folly almost breathtaking in its audacity. Yet people cannot see this because they lack wisdom.

So I say to you Get wisdom. But you do not get wisdom because you do not value it. Therefore the scriptures says.
"Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?"

Wisdom is hard earned. Its cost is very high even to the submitting of the arrogance of selfish pride, a form of death to the proud, but essential for the getting of wisdom. But the fool can see no lack in himself, he places no value on wisdom, he scarce can imagine that another person could impart wisdom to him that he has not already attained himself. He makes no sacrifice therefore to obtain wisdom. So he dies the way he lived with his dying breath saying "Its up to me".

In YOUR opinion.
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