Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
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17-02-2017, 09:14 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(16-02-2017 05:52 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:‘Officers attended and escorted the men off the flight preventing a breach of the peace. No offences were found to have been committed.’

Interfering with a flight crew is not an "offense" over there?

I would expect that it would be illegal to interfere with a flight crew. Obstinately blocking the aisle and disobeying flight crew instructions should get you arrested. The crew panicked when the exit lights to illuminated when the guy plugged his phone into the console. Who does that??

They should have been arrested. Their ignorance of the law and basic social norms is not an excuse for them to rely on. I hate to say it like this but I know this community well. If you arrest them, you'll send a strong, effective message to the community. If you let it slide, there will just be more of the same.
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17-02-2017, 09:54 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(17-02-2017 09:14 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-02-2017 05:52 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Interfering with a flight crew is not an "offense" over there?

I would expect that it would be illegal to interfere with a flight crew. Obstinately blocking the aisle and disobeying flight crew instructions should get you arrested. The crew panicked when the exit lights to illuminated when the guy plugged his phone into the console. Who does that??

They should have been arrested. Their ignorance of the law and basic social norms is not an excuse for them to rely on. I hate to say it like this but I know this community well. If you arrest them, you'll send a strong, effective message to the community. If you let it slide, there will just be more of the same.

Are they just ultra orthodox? Or are they so orthodox that orthodox Jews think they're nuts? I mean... I'm still not wrapping my head around how they get so anti sitting next to a woman - don't they have mothers and sisters?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-02-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(17-02-2017 09:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-02-2017 09:14 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I would expect that it would be illegal to interfere with a flight crew. Obstinately blocking the aisle and disobeying flight crew instructions should get you arrested. The crew panicked when the exit lights to illuminated when the guy plugged his phone into the console. Who does that??

They should have been arrested. Their ignorance of the law and basic social norms is not an excuse for them to rely on. I hate to say it like this but I know this community well. If you arrest them, you'll send a strong, effective message to the community. If you let it slide, there will just be more of the same.

Are they just ultra orthodox? Or are they so orthodox that orthodox Jews think they're nuts? I mean... I'm still not wrapping my head around how they get so anti sitting next to a woman - don't they have mothers and sisters?

Maybe they just don't sit next to them?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-02-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(17-02-2017 10:27 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(17-02-2017 09:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  Are they just ultra orthodox? Or are they so orthodox that orthodox Jews think they're nuts? I mean... I'm still not wrapping my head around how they get so anti sitting next to a woman - don't they have mothers and sisters?

Maybe they just don't sit next to them?

They need to buy the row or shut up.

And if they buy the row and people get bumped then they can either choose to leave the plane before it departs from the gate or they need to politely ask people to change seats and explain their cultural preferences. Then they need to say thank you and not expect that this is a service that is due to them by the general public.
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17-02-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(17-02-2017 09:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'm still not wrapping my head around how they get so anti sitting next to a woman - don't they have mothers and sisters?

It might have to do with the notion that women, when they're on their menstrual cycles, are considered "unclean." The men in question wouldn't know if the women present would be "clean" or not, so they just try to avoid close proximity.

With mothers and sisters, they'd probably know.

Have you read The Year of Living Biblically? The whole "unclean woman" thing and the lengths he goes to avoid impurity is riotous.

The author, A.J. Jacobs, does a Ted talk about the whole experience. It's about 18 minutes long and worth the time.



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17-02-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(17-02-2017 10:36 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(17-02-2017 09:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  I'm still not wrapping my head around how they get so anti sitting next to a woman - don't they have mothers and sisters?

It might have to do with the notion that women, when they're on their menstrual cycles, are considered "unclean." The men in question wouldn't know if the women present would be "clean" or not, so they just try to avoid close proximity.

With mothers and sisters, they'd probably know.

Have you read The Year of Living Biblically? The whole "unclean woman" thing and the lengths he goes to avoid impurity is riotous.

The author, A.J. Jacobs, does a Ted talk about the whole experience. It's about 18 minutes long and worth the time.




He should probably have consulted professionals before attempting this project. Facepalm With anything else, you'd probably consult professionals before embarking on a new activity that you know nothing about. When it comes to religion, people think they know everything already.

Menstruation is not the actual reason why they don't want to sit next to women. I mean, it might be fun to bring it to their attention if they're being obnoxious, but it's not the reason why this is happening. It boils down to a cultural difference. This is how their culture is set up, and that's it.
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17-02-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
double post.
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17-02-2017, 11:20 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(17-02-2017 10:36 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  It might have to do with the notion that women, when they're on their menstrual cycles, are considered "unclean."
If so, they are misogynist.

(16-02-2017 10:36 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I won’t get into the finer details of why these men refuse to sit next to women. Misogyny isn’t the reason, though I can certainly see why people would think it is.
Or is it another reason they dont want to sit next to women?

Is it true that they dont allow their women to have a drivers license?
What about the former Mehadrin buses? Wasnt segregation the same reason they now refuse to sit next to women in an airliner?
Imho racial segregation in the 50s in the US was racist, and gender segregation by/for the ultraorthodox is misogynist, particularly since those buses had to be prohibited by law, not because the ultraorthodox gave way.
Is it true that they have special light switches with a few seconds delay on sabbath, so pushing the switch is -strictly speaking- not the cause for light? If so, then they must think their god is a moron, if they think they have to follow written rules, rather than following the spirit of those rules. If god is omniscient then he surely would know they are trying to cheat him with special light switches. If so, they arent only misogynists, but idiots too.

(17-02-2017 11:01 AM)Aliza Wrote:  This is how their culture is set up, and that's it.
Then its a horrible, idiotic, misogynist culture.

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17-02-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(17-02-2017 10:32 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(17-02-2017 10:27 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Maybe they just don't sit next to them?

They need to buy the row or shut up.

And if they buy the row and people get bumped then they can either choose to leave the plane before it departs from the gate or they need to politely ask people to change seats and explain their cultural preferences. Then they need to say thank you and not expect that this is a service that is due to them by the general public.



You remind me of a quote by the great Robert G. Ingersoll:

Quote:If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane.

Robert Green Ingersoll

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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17-02-2017, 11:40 AM
RE: Group of Orthodox Jews removed from flight for refusing to sit with women
(17-02-2017 11:01 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Menstruation is not the actual reason why they don't want to sit next to women. I mean, it might be fun to bring it to their attention if they're being obnoxious, but it's not the reason why this is happening. It boils down to a cultural difference. This is how their culture is set up, and that's it.

Well, Lev 15:19 is pretty explicit:
Quote:When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

It seems pretty clear that the cultural differences are an outgrowth of the religious teachings.

All that said, since you're on the inside of the faith and culture, I'll gladly defer to your insider knowledge.
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