Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
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03-08-2011, 03:57 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(02-08-2011 10:08 PM)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:  Maybe he didn't read any of the gospel accounts, but why would he have had too. He definitely heard about the events concerning calvary and it shows in his writings. Paul mentions that God became a man, being Jesus, that His blood was shed for the remission of sins, that He was crucified on a cross, and was buried and resurrected three days later and appeared before His disciples. This is the gospel message.
There is no THE gospel message, (as you correctly imply by your comment about the Catholics and Gnosticism). The 4 canonical gospels each has a different motivation for it's writing/editing/compilation, and while having many common themes, each of them is vastly different from the other. If simplicity is what you NEED, great. Then why exactly are you here ? There are countless "concordances" available which point out the differences, and similarities between the 4 gospels, and if you care to read the non-canonical gospels you will be able to line them up, and look at the literary differences among them all. NONE of the 4 canonical gospels says ANYTHING about "His blood was shed for the remission of sins", (if they do please tell us where). As Mark F. has been trying to explain to you, "the remission of sins" thing was a Pauline invention. Each of the gospels also has a differing view on "God became a man", if indeed they think that happened at all. You can look at my other posts about how they differ on that concept.
Quote:There's only one gospel message and it's always the same message. Can you show me how the gospel differs from Paul to Mark, or from Paul to John? They all preached Christ crucified. This is my gospel and Christ is my Savior. This is my families gospel and Christ is their Savior. And this is the worlds gospel and Christ is the Savior of the whole world.
I am not here to begin your education on the New Testament. The gospels differ from each other in many many ways, and there are countless books on that subject, as well as their differences with the authors of the Pauline letters. Your assertion that there is only "one" gospel, simply doesn't make is so. If you NEED to tell yourself that, as well as make statements of faith, then I guess that's what you need, but why you choose to come here and do that here is more than a little "interesting". NONE of the gospels say ANYTHING about Jesus "saving" you from anything. That also was a Pauline invention, and neither the gospels nor anywhere in the Old Testament does it say ANYTHING about the need for a sacrifice by a "son of god" to pay the "price" for anything.
Quote:Can you tell me how many times the Septuagint translates the passage in Isaiah as virgin. The greek translation was penned hundreds of years before the gospel birth narratives.
1. The Septuagint doesn't "translate" anything. Your question is nonsensical and irrelevant.
2. The authors/editors of Matthew were writing in Greek, translating FOR THEMSELVES, the Aramaic/Hebrew/Syriac texts they knew by heart, or had in front of them.
Quote:To understand passages such as these you first have to understand how to interpret prophecy. I'll try to cover this concept in another post.
Great. Go for it. Please teach us how to "interpret prophesy". Ahem. While you're at it, please be sure and tell us why we should accept your interpretation as valid, or more authentic than any one of the millions of other interpretations, each of which are just as sure as you are that they are THE correct one. Good luck with that.
Quote:Anyways you stopped a little early in your example, you should have proceeded a bit further to Isaiah 9:
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this" Notice here that a "son" will be given and his name will be "Mighty God". Yet another hurdle concerning Mark's stance that ancient Jew's would have considered God having a son as heretical.
("anyways" is improper English grammar BTW)...
(Your little quote there calls the son the father. Oops.)
Quote:Also interesting that Matthew (1:25) only says that Joseph "knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son". It does NOT say she REMAINED a virgin. (??) That's a problem for Catholics, but then again their more gnostic than bible believing.
What ? What does "THEY'RE more Gnostic" have to do with anything ? What does Gnosticism have to do with the continued virginity of Mary ? Gnosticism DID have a LOT to do with the "continuing" divinity of Jesus, (as stated in the Gospel of John), which was very different than the concept of the "beginning" divinity in Mark, and the third concept, "interrupted divinity" as evidenced in Luke and Matthew, (all VERY different concepts), thus all very different gospels.

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07-08-2011, 03:54 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
Hey HBAF, where are you? I miss you! We need you to keep this thread going! Maybe you've actually been reading your bible? Please come back!
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09-08-2011, 09:06 PM
 
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(07-08-2011 03:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey HBAF, where are you? I miss you! We need you to keep this thread going! Maybe you've actually been reading your bible? Please come back!
Life happens as it were, and right now it's coming at me from all angles.

No worries though, I plan to hang for awhile longer, so if you see me fade just know I'll be back on the next wave. Tongue

I haven't read much of my bible this week, though I did go to a prophecy conference this weekend. Well I could only stay for the first two speakers. Go Israel! Blush

Ah jeez were do I pick this up at??? Bucky seemed irritated with me on his last post, I better start there. Angry
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09-08-2011, 11:23 PM
 
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(03-08-2011 03:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no THE gospel message, (as you correctly imply by your comment about the Catholics and Gnosticism).
The gospel message is the good news as mentioned in the Old Testament.

"Get yourself up on a high mountain, O Zion, bearer of good news, Lift up your voice mightily, O Jerusalem, bearer of good news; Lift it up, do not fear. Say to the cities of Judah, "Here is your God!"

"How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners"

All of the above passages are found in Isaiah, which is a book that points to God having a son. There are plenty passages that speak of the good news, but what is the good news exactly? Lets ask this question first, "When was the gospel first preached?"

The gospel was first preached to Abraham way back in the book of Genesis. Here's the first mention of him in Genesis:

"Abram and Nahor took wives for themselves. The name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife was Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah and Iscah. Sarai was barren; she had no child."

It's interesting that scripture focuses on Abraham being childless, then later reveals the future work of the Lord by giving him a son. But someone speaks to Abraham about the gospel before he's even told that he will have a son.

After Abraham defeated the kings that took Lot his nephew, he is visited by Melchizedek who gives him a blessing. At this point it's important to understand that Melchizedek is both a king and a priest, which is not allowed under Jewish law. Only the Lord Himself can be both a king and a priest. Melchizedek was the Lord Jesus Himself who came to Abraham to preach the gospel or the good news.

Melchizedek came to Abraham to bless him with a covenant meal of bread and wine, just as Jesus had a covenant meal with His disciples with bread and wine. Remember that you could only receive a blessing from someone greater than you in Hebraic thought. Who was greater than Abraham back in the valley of the kings? Melchizedek or rather Jesus Christ. And Abraham makes this point self evident:

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." He gave him a tenth of all...Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the LORD God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth"

Immediately after that the Lord revealed to Abraham that he would have a son:

"After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you...Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir...Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness"

Later the Lord (Jesus) appeared before Abraham again, after Abraham had already bore a son through his wife's maid servant:

"Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him...Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

Further along we find God telling Abraham to take his one and only son, even though Abraham had another son in Ishmael, and offer him as a burnt offering. Here we see Abraham's faith in God and his absolute trust that he would resurrect Issac. Remember that the gospel message had already been revealed to Abraham through Melchizedek (Jesus) the king and priest, who also had covenant meal with him including the bread and the wine.

There has always been a gospel message. The idea that any New Testament writer invented any of these concepts is too lack understanding in what is written in the Old Testament and the overall picture that it paints.

"Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go over there; and we will worship and return to you."Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together. Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided."

There's too much here to fully expound in a single post, like the son being obedient to the fathers will, the location of the sacrifice being the Mount of the Lord, etc.... The gospel was preached to the Jews the same way the gospel will be preached to those living on earth during the reign of Christ, as mention in the book of Revelation. How else would you preach the good news were Christ is physically ruling and reigning, Satan is bound and there is little or no sin? By going back to the basics of the Old Testament.

Bro I'll have to address the rest of your post another day. I feel like your getting frustrated with me, but I would ask that you give me time to fully explain my position on some of these topics...
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10-08-2011, 02:47 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(09-08-2011 11:23 PM)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:  
(03-08-2011 03:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no THE gospel message, (as you correctly imply by your comment about the Catholics and Gnosticism).
The gospel message is the good news as mentioned in the Old Testament.

"Get yourself up on a high mountain, O Zion, bearer of good news, Lift up your voice mightily, O Jerusalem, bearer of good news; Lift it up, do not fear. Say to the cities of Judah, "Here is your God!"

"How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners"

All of the above passages are found in Isaiah, which is a book that points to God having a son. There are plenty passages that speak of the good news, but what is the good news exactly? Lets ask this question first, "When was the gospel first preached?"

The gospel was first preached to Abraham way back in the book of Genesis. Here's the first mention of him in Genesis:

"Abram and Nahor took wives for themselves. The name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife was Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah and Iscah. Sarai was barren; she had no child."

It's interesting that scripture focuses on Abraham being childless, then later reveals the future work of the Lord by giving him a son. But someone speaks to Abraham about the gospel before he's even told that he will have a son.

After Abraham defeated the kings that took Lot his nephew, he is visited by Melchizedek who gives him a blessing. At this point it's important to understand that Melchizedek is both a king and a priest, which is not allowed under Jewish law. Only the Lord Himself can be both a king and a priest. Melchizedek was the Lord Jesus Himself who came to Abraham to preach the gospel or the good news.

Melchizedek came to Abraham to bless him with a covenant meal of bread and wine, just as Jesus had a covenant meal with His disciples with bread and wine. Remember that you could only receive a blessing from someone greater than you in Hebraic thought. Who was greater than Abraham back in the valley of the kings? Melchizedek or rather Jesus Christ. And Abraham makes this point self evident:

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." He gave him a tenth of all...Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the LORD God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth"

Immediately after that the Lord revealed to Abraham that he would have a son:

"After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you...Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir...Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness"

Later the Lord (Jesus) appeared before Abraham again, after Abraham had already bore a son through his wife's maid servant:

"Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him...Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

Further along we find God telling Abraham to take his one and only son, even though Abraham had another son in Ishmael, and offer him as a burnt offering. Here we see Abraham's faith in God and his absolute trust that he would resurrect Issac. Remember that the gospel message had already been revealed to Abraham through Melchizedek (Jesus) the king and priest, who also had covenant meal with him including the bread and the wine.

There has always been a gospel message. The idea that any New Testament writer invented any of these concepts is too lack understanding in what is written in the Old Testament and the overall picture that it paints.

"Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go over there; and we will worship and return to you."Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together. Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided."

There's too much here to fully expound in a single post, like the son being obedient to the fathers will, the location of the sacrifice being the Mount of the Lord, etc.... The gospel was preached to the Jews the same way the gospel will be preached to those living on earth during the reign of Christ, as mention in the book of Revelation. How else would you preach the good news were Christ is physically ruling and reigning, Satan is bound and there is little or no sin? By going back to the basics of the Old Testament.

Bro I'll have to address the rest of your post another day. I feel like your getting frustrated with me, but I would ask that you give me time to fully explain my position on some of these topics...

HBAF, you're rambling!! Please...for your own sake....come back down to planet earth. You are not addressing any of the very real issues Bucky or myself have bought up. I could pick all of your above statements to pieces....but....mate....you just wouldn't get it. I would be wasting my time. I challenge you to GET REAL. READ BUCKY"S AND MY COMMENTS AND ADDRESS THEM.
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10-08-2011, 05:30 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
Ok, first off Isaiah is simply a book that discusses some of the good of the people of Israel. At least you didn't try to claim the song that every christian is convinced is talking about Jesus. In Isaiah the term son is referred to often, it also has an explanation of what it means quite a few times. Son in Isaiah means Israel, just as Israel goes a whoring and does all of the horrible female things it also gets praised as a son. Read some jewish accounts of Isaiah and you'll see that they don't agree at all. Early christian literature took certain liberties to make the book seem more affording to Jesus.

Seriously though go spend time on jewish forums and learn their versions of things before trying to use them to back you up. Jesus is to judaism as Joseph Smith is to christianity. Some crazy loon who thought they heard god, or even attempted to use god for their own gain.

Now then I actually am here to back you up today HBAF, maybe not how you would like. There actually is a pretty widely agreed upon gospel, well, about one widely agreed upon gospel per sect. Generally preachers will preach the same story about god, but yes as you change sects the story is altered. Since the actual books support multiple Jesus ideas each group just picks their favorite. So you're not completely wrong, but the gospel message you are discussing is more hearsay than in a book.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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10-08-2011, 06:20 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
Ok HBAF, I've reread your latest post 5 times to try to understand if there is some sort of logic to it. It appears you are trying to argue that there is "one gospel" by quoting the Old testament. I am not trying to belittle you here....but really....can you not perceive how inherintly illogical your presumptions are? The gospels were written, at the very earliest, in the late first century. The Old testament writings were written hundredes of years earlier. You claim a character in the OT (Melchizedek) was really Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Come on....you can't just make things up because it sounds good. You have Jesus appearing to Abraham!!!!!!!!

The last thing I want to do is turn this into a "us verses you" argument. Lilith and me have suggested you learn a little about the Old testament from Jews...the kin of the people who wrote it. Why don't you do that? You show almost no evidence of listening to anyone else on this forum....your posts are just a launchpad for your own ramblings...are you here to learn, or just lecture people?

If anyone thinks I'm being unfair on HBAF, please say so.
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11-08-2011, 10:13 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(10-08-2011 06:20 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The gospels were written, at the very earliest, in the late first century. The Old testament writings were written hundredes of years earlier.
The gospels were written by people who knew and believed the Old Testament. They are a continuation of the revelation God gave in the Old Testament and show the fulfillment of many Old Testament prophecies. Have you ever read the gospels to see how many times the Old Testament is quoted in them?

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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11-08-2011, 10:53 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(11-08-2011 10:13 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(10-08-2011 06:20 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The gospels were written, at the very earliest, in the late first century. The Old testament writings were written hundredes of years earlier.
The gospels were written by people who knew and believed the Old Testament. They are a continuation of the revelation God gave in the Old Testament and show the fulfillment of many Old Testament prophecies. Have you ever read the gospels to see how many times the Old Testament is quoted in them?
Wow! A newer book quoting an older book, where the newer book claims to fulfill prophesies in the older book. Fancy that!
I would never expect that to happen. Proof!

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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11-08-2011, 11:10 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(11-08-2011 10:13 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(10-08-2011 06:20 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The gospels were written, at the very earliest, in the late first century. The Old testament writings were written hundredes of years earlier.
The gospels were written by people who knew and believed the Old Testament. They are a continuation of the revelation God gave in the Old Testament and show the fulfillment of many Old Testament prophecies. Have you ever read the gospels to see how many times the Old Testament is quoted in them?

I basically agree that the gospels were written in a way that attempted to make the Jesus story look as though it was fulfilling Old testament prophesy. The authors do a dreadfully amateurish job of it though, as judged using today's standards of journalism. So we agree about that.

My point is that HBAF can't legitimately claim Jesus appeared in the Old Testament without any proof. I don't see why i even have to explain that to you or him. If I claimed Michael Jackson appears in the Old Testament you would laugh at me. Well mate...the world laughs when you or HBAF make unsustantiated claims.
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