Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
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13-08-2011, 02:56 AM
 
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(10-08-2011 05:30 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Read some jewish accounts of Isaiah and you'll see that they don't agree at all. Early christian literature took certain liberties to make the book seem more affording to Jesus.
The early Christian church was exclusively Jewish and that Jewishness is self evident throughout the New Testament. Not that I doubt your knowledge of the bible, but I would be interested to know what NT books you thought were the most Hebraic in thought and why?
Quote:Seriously though go spend time on jewish forums and learn their versions of things before trying to use them to back you up. Jesus is to judaism as Joseph Smith is to christianity. Some crazy loon who thought they heard god, or even attempted to use god for their own gain.
Spending time in Jewish forums would avail me very little considering today's Judaism is far removed from it's roots. Just read what the Jewish scribes of the past wrote about the Messiah in their own words. Modern Judaism denies its own writings in the OT and the majority opinion of it's Rabbi's throughout history.

Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 99a:
All the prophets prophesied only of the days of the Messiah"

The idea that the suffering servant was the nation of Israel rather than the Mashiyach started gaining prominence around the 11th -13th centuries. And was primarily inspired to throw the scent off of an ever encroaching claim by Christians that Jesus was the Messiah of the Old Testament.

Do you know that some Jews refer to Isaiah 52 as the forbidden chapter or that the Talmud forbids the reading of Daniel 9. The reason being that they both clearly point to the Anointed One, not a nation. These passages are problematic for the modern Jew who denies their Messiah.

There are differing opinions from the scribes about these suffering servant passages, but the majority opinion throughout the centuries has been that there about the Messiah. The cool thing about all this is that the Jewish scribes can speak for themselves. No modern day Judaic forum can erase what has already been etched in stone, so what do the majority of the scribes say....

Targum of Jonathan:
"He shall save them from the servitude of the nations...By his wisdom he shall vindicate the meritorious, in order to bring many to be subservient to the Torah and he shall seek forgiveness for their sins."

"Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper, he shall be high and increase"

Rabbi Mosheh El-Sheikh:
"I may remark then, that our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah, and we ourselves adhere to the same view." Regarding Isaiah 53

Siphre:
"How much more, then, will the King Messiah, who endures affliction and pains for the transgressors as it is written, 'He was wounded,' ect., justify all generations! And this is what is meant when it is said, 'And the Lord made the iniquity of us all meet upon Him'"

Babylonian Talmud:
"The Messiah- what is His name? The Rabbis say, 'The leprous one, those of the house of the Rabbi say, 'The sick one,' as it is said, 'Surely He hath born our sickness,' ect..."

Thanhuma:
"Rabbi nachman says, 'The word 'man' in the passage, every man ahead of the house of his fathers (Num. 1:4) refers to the Messiah the son of David, as it is written, 'Behold the man whose name is 'Zemah' (the branch), where Yonathan interprets, 'Behold the man Messiah (Zech. 6:12), and so it is said, 'A man of pains and known to sickness.'"

Zohar:
"There is in the garden of eden a palace called the Palace of the sons of sickness.:this palace the messiah then enters and summons each sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they come and rest upon him. And where it not that he had thus lightened them off israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the transgression of the law: and this is that which is written, 'Surely our sickness He hath carried.'"

....they say he's the son of David, the Messiah.

I have a comprehensive list of Rabbinical writings concerning these passages, which all agree with the New Testament interpretation that there about a 'man' being the Messiah. Say the word and I'll gladly list them all.

Quote:Now then I actually am here to back you up today HBAF, maybe not how you would like.
Please tell me that you'll cover my flank. Undecided

Quote:Since the actual books support multiple Jesus ideas each group just picks their favorite. So you're not completely wrong, but the gospel message you are discussing is more hearsay than in a book.
Love this statement, "Since the actual books support multiple Jesus ideas" because it actually vindicates my position and is absolutely true! Wink
(10-08-2011 02:47 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  HBAF, you're rambling!! Please...for your own sake....come back down to planet earth. You are not addressing any of the very real issues Bucky or myself have bought up. I could pick all of your above statements to pieces....but....mate....you just wouldn't get it. I would be wasting my time. I challenge you to GET REAL. READ BUCKY"S AND MY COMMENTS AND ADDRESS THEM.
Really, I thought I was rumbling. Cool

Sorry I'll try and make a more concise response to your inquiries when the next set rolls in, later bro...
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13-08-2011, 11:23 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
This is very difficult.
I was a closet athiest for 20 years due to family issues.
I still don't "go there" and I consider them insane.

Just live your life with the inner peace that you desirve as a human being.
Take solace that you have thought things through.
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14-08-2011, 06:46 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(13-08-2011 11:23 PM)Thomas Wrote:  This is very difficult.
I was a closet athiest for 20 years due to family issues.
I still don't "go there" and I consider them insane.

Just live your life with the inner peace that you desirve as a human being.
Take solace that you have thought things through.

Hi Thomas. I sense your integrity and I feel a warmth towards you. They are not insane, just thoroughly brainwashed. Consider Nazi Germany. The majority of Germans, in the early years, thought Hitler was a hero. The German people weren't insane, just uninformed and easily swayed.

As the world becomes more educated, Christian numbers will decrease and they will become less powerful.

Leonard Cohen sings
"there is a crack, a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in." We need to keep pointing out the cracks, and offer support to those who need it. We owe it to future generations.
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