Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
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22-07-2011, 12:55 AM
 
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(20-07-2011 07:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  BTW Lilith, where exactly did JC talk about the "rapture". I don't think he ever did. Can you cite one time the authors place any words about that in his mouth. The eschatology of the time was largely political. In fact, even at the END of his story the followers, just before the Ascension myth, ask him "Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel ?, (Acts 1:6). He apparently was disappointed that even at the end they didn't get that he maybe didn't intend it to be political, but THAT'S what their eschatology was all about. Later when it never happened, they changed it to other views, including the "rapture", a term he NEVER used.
Jesus mentions the fact that He will be raptured throughout the gospel of John:

"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

"What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?"

"Some of His disciples then said to one another, "What is this thing He is telling us, 'A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?"

The NT also mentions that Jesus didn't ascend on His own power, but was carried off being raptured. *Side note: The term rapture is a translation of the greek word Harpazo, which basically means to be snatched away. Though it makes no difference because the NT is more concerned with the concept. Remember the parable Jesus spoke of, "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." Here Jesus is speaking of binding satan through His future victory over sin. Then He can take back (rapture) what satan snatched (raptured) away from Him back in the garden. Remember that God (Jesus) was walking in the garden in the cool of the day way back in Genesis..... damn that was a long side note.Confused

"While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven"

The idea of the rapture was not a New Testament invention, but an Old Testament concept.

"You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there."

"Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!"

A picture of the rapture can be found in Genesis before the flood.

"Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

I forgot the particulars so forgive me for throwing this out there with little or no support. The premise is based on the meaning of the names in the genealogy of Genesis chapter 5, I currently don't have their definitions. Anyways Enoch was raptured before God's wrath was poured out on the earth in the form of a flood. Just as the church will be raptured before God's wrath is poured out a second time, as mentioned in Revelation. It's interesting how it all breaks down, I'm bummed that I can't recall much of it. It later culminates with Noah who is a type of Christ. Noah ends up being a carpenter, sound familiar. Who constructs a method of salvation out of wood, again sounds familiar...

Well Jesus may have never used the word rapture but He didn't have too. He spoke of it, implied it and was Himself raptured.
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22-07-2011, 10:49 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
Jesus mentions the fact that He will be raptured throughout the gospel of John:

"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

"What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?"

"Some of His disciples then said to one another, "What is this thing He is telling us, 'A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?"

The NT also mentions that Jesus didn't ascend on His own power, but was carried off being raptured. *Side note: The term rapture is a translation of the greek word Harpazo, which basically means to be snatched away. Though it makes no difference because the NT is more concerned with the concept. Remember the parable Jesus spoke of, "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." Here Jesus is speaking of binding satan through His future victory over sin. Then He can take back (rapture) what satan snatched (raptured) away from Him back in the garden. Remember that God (Jesus) was walking in the garden in the cool of the day way back in Genesis..... damn that was a long side note.Confused

"While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven"

The idea of the rapture was not a New Testament invention, but an Old Testament concept.

"You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there."

"Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!"

A picture of the rapture can be found in Genesis before the flood.

"Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

I forgot the particulars so forgive me for throwing this out there with little or no support. The premise is based on the meaning of the names in the genealogy of Genesis chapter 5, I currently don't have their definitions. Anyways Enoch was raptured before God's wrath was poured out on the earth in the form of a flood. Just as the church will be raptured before God's wrath is poured out a second time, as mentioned in Revelation. It's interesting how it all breaks down, I'm bummed that I can't recall much of it.method of salvation out of wood, again sounds f It later culminates with Noah who is a type of Christ. Noah ends up being a carpenter, sound familiar.

Well Jesus may have never used the word rapture but He didn't have too. He spoke of it, implied it and was Himself raptured.
[/quote]

Sorry, but I don't buy it. To say Yeshua used a word or concept that was TRANSLATED into Greek, (meaning "snatched away), or what ever, is not gong to do it for me. Just saying someone goes somewhere or something goes somewhere, they were talking about rapture or that the concept of "rapture' was intended or correctly translated, to me is not convincing. If Harpazo was a translation of "snatch away" what was the Hebrew or Aramaic or Syriac word which Harpazo translates ? I think there are only 7 quotes in the synoptics which scholars agree actually were likely spoken by Yeshua. I need to look for those, and will, if we continue this, but John was MUCH later, and no way 100+ years later could be quoting him accurately, and the quotes you mention are not among them, (the seven).
I do have to concede the ascension is awfully similar in concept. I had forgotten about that. But my question was meant to open the discussion, by using the quote I did, about the obvious (mis?)understanding of the followers of the whole thing. They DID think it was all about a political "restoration", and NOT about a rapture. (I would agree that it could appear that the reason JC may have come to the conclusion that the only way for him to finally convince the followers that it was NOT about politics was to submit to the authorities after his civil disobedience in the temple, as he MUST have known he would likely be arrested and dealt with). He was obviously unsuccessful with that.
To say that Noah, and the flood story, (lifted from the Gilgamesh Epic) "ends up" anything, AFTER the Yeshua chronicles, is preposterous. If anything it would have had to be the other way around. I think saying Noah and Yeshua are related because they were associated with wood products is stretching things. And Yeshua didn't make the cross, (his method of salvation), (which I also don't concede because "salvation" was never mentioned by Yeshua, but only developed later by some of the followers).
So yeah, lots of snatching, much more than I realized, but my point about politics stands. Great post. Thanks.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-07-2011, 06:28 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
I apologize for not replying to you yet Bucky, but my comment was how I saw the character portrayed in the books with his very rushed and egotistical statements. I can get you a fleshed out version, but I would need to find time to sit down and prepare it. I am not really someone who cares to have all of the info right in my face but I can always get it if you really want to hear my full opinion. I do very much appreciate hunted by a freak's answer to the question. I was not really suggesting that jesus was obsessed with the rapture, i said he was an end timer just like all the people obsessed over it now. The things written about him make him seem just like the kinds of people you'll meet on the bus rambling away. Cultures change and with them many views of social order, but attitudes will always remain in a similar state no matter how long the human race exists.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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22-07-2011, 07:47 PM
 
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(22-07-2011 10:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry, but I don't buy it. To say Yeshua used a word or concept that was TRANSLATED into Greek, (meaning "snatched away), or what ever, is not gong to do it for me. Just saying someone goes somewhere or something goes somewhere, they were talking about rapture or that the concept of "rapture' was intended or correctly translated, to me is not convincing. If Harpazo was a translation of "snatch away" what was the Hebrew or Aramaic or Syriac word which Harpazo translates ? I think there are only 7 quotes in the synoptics which scholars agree actually were likely spoken by Yeshua. I need to look for those, and will, if we continue this, but John was MUCH later, and no way 100+ years later could be quoting him accurately, and the quotes you mention are not among them, (the seven).
Don't you mean there are 7 quotes that the members of the Jesus seminar agree upon?
Quote:I do have to concede the ascension is awfully similar in concept. I had forgotten about that. But my question was meant to open the discussion, by using the quote I did, about the obvious (mis?)understanding of the followers of the whole thing. They DID think it was all about a political "restoration", and NOT about a rapture.
I see your point, they were anticipating the coming kingdom, not being left behind. Off the top of my head I would think its because Jesus was still with them. It's like when Peter saw Jesus transfigured and asked if he could construct three booths in anticipation of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, going back to the feast of Israel. He obviously wasn't expecting a rapture while Jesus was here. Hmm I have to bake this in the oven for a while, never looked at it this way before.
Quote:(I would agree that it could appear that the reason JC may have come to the conclusion that the only way for him to finally convince the followers that it was NOT about politics was to submit to the authorities after his civil disobedience in the temple, as he MUST have known he would likely be arrested and dealt with). He was obviously unsuccessful with that.
I guess its a matter of perspective, from my vantage point He was successful.
Quote:To say that Noah, and the flood story, (lifted from the Gilgamesh Epic) "ends up" anything, AFTER the Yeshua chronicles, is preposterous. If anything it would have had to be the other way around.
What would you think if I said that every Old Testament saint was a picture of Christ. The book of Hebrews makes this claim in a roundabout way, "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--In the volume of the book it is written of Me--To do Your will, O God.' " Now that really would be preposterous if it were true.
Quote:I think saying Noah and Yeshua are related because they were associated with wood products is stretching things.
If that were the only example I presented then I would agree. *Bookmarked for a future post.
Quote:And Yeshua didn't make the cross, (his method of salvation), (which I also don't concede because "salvation" was never mentioned by Yeshua, but only developed later by some of the followers)
Noah was burdened with building an ark out of wood, which was a method of salvation. Jesus was burdened with carrying His cross constructed out of wood, which was a method of salvation. That was the only point I was trying to make. I'll try to address your post based on the reference in Acts. I wanted to try and respond to a post from Mark before to long, so I'll have to put this in a holding pattern for now. But please feel free to respond. Late.
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22-07-2011, 07:55 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(22-07-2011 06:28 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I apologize for not replying to you yet Bucky, but my comment was how I saw the character portrayed in the books with his very rushed and egotistical statements. I can get you a fleshed out version, but I would need to find time to sit down and prepare it. I am not really someone who cares to have all of the info right in my face but I can always get it if you really want to hear my full opinion. I do very much appreciate hunted by a freak's answer to the question. I was not really suggesting that jesus was obsessed with the rapture, i said he was an end timer just like all the people obsessed over it now. The things written about him make him seem just like the kinds of people you'll meet on the bus rambling away. Cultures change and with them many views of social order, but attitudes will always remain in a similar state no matter how long the human race exists.

Agree with everything except the last sentence. I think the differences in worldviews between 3500 BCE and 2011 CE cannot be overstated, and your statement would be partially true, depending what "attitudes" you are talking about, (women, gays, democracy, divine right of king etc.)


"I see your point, they were anticipating the coming kingdom, not being left behind."

No no no. They were looking for the literal RESTORATION of the Kingdom of ISRAEL, and the expulsion of the Romans. It was NOT a spiritual expectation. It was a literal political reality.

"I guess its a matter of perspective, from my vantage point He was successful."

Maybe, but considering the question about restoration came after the crucifixion, and just before the ascension, they STILL didn't get it.

"What would you think if I said that every Old Testament saint was a picture of Christ. The book of Hebrews makes this claim in a roundabout way, "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--In the volume of the book it is written of Me--To do Your will, O God.' " Now that really would be preposterous if it were true."

It is a common misconception that the Jews were waiting for a "Messiah". Only a very small minority were. It was simply not a part of the picture.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-07-2011, 09:12 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2011 05:03 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
I was saying worldviews aren't the same, but crazy is crazy, aggressive is aggressive. People have the same demeanors always. Timid people will always have basically the same attitude but depending on their culture it will focus on different things. So it's ok to look at someone as like something else if you're thinking of the overall perspective. I think that Jesus was more an end timer than a priest (both can act like prophets) everything he talked about was way too urgent to me he was overly demanding. And he himself told everyone not to listen to people who talk like him =p

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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23-07-2011, 04:47 AM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2011 04:50 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(22-07-2011 09:12 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I was saying worldviews are the same, but crazy is crazy, aggressive is aggressive. People have the same demeanors always. Timid people will always have basically the sam attitude but depending on their culture it will focus on different things. So it's ok to look at someone as like something else if you're thinking of the overall perspective. I think that Jesus was more a end timer than a priest (both can act like prophets) everything he talked about was way too urgent to me he was overly demanding. And he himself told everyone not to listen to people who talk like him =p

Agree completely. What is determined to be "the other" is as varied as each culture, (as well as the behaviors towards them) but the MOTIVATION for the (process of) calling of the other (as you say focusing on many different things), "the other" in ANY culture is group forming , thus valuable if groups are valuable. Depends on which group you want, (need), to be perceived to be a part of, (and why). ((The "why" (and the need) are the interesting questions, for me.))

Also agree Yeshua was an end timer, (while I still maintain the followers were political wanna-bes, since they were illiterate). If he WAS an Essene, (or one of the other similar groups), it all fits. The Pauline Concoctions, (convoluted systemics, ie "Christianity") were a response to the annoying tardiness of the end time.
Cool

BTW, am new here. What is "reputation" ? How is that determined ? Thks.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-07-2011, 05:02 AM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2011 05:07 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
When you really interest someone they will press the reputation and it will open up the reputation info on a person so you can see what others say then you can give a positive or negative point. People don't seem to give reputation as often now that they can like specific posts, but basically this reputation number suggests that others find you to be extremely informative and general accurate.

And of course people who come here suggesting outlandish things or provoking arguments get bad reputation for upsetting the forum.

And I can't see any way to explain him as not an essene, Jesus was a non denominational Jew who happened to really like the styles sported by essenes so he just mimicked them? hehehe right =p

Just like the yawhists overthrew the rest of the early judaic sects this was just one specific view trying to take over all of them again as they split and diverge, but somehow people missed the fact that Jesus was supposed to be the new war god =p

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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23-07-2011, 06:59 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
Don't you mean there are 7 quotes that the members of the Jesus seminar agree upon?

I need to check on that. I learned about the 7 quotes from another source, and need to check both the Seminar, and my (academic) sources. Stay tuned.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-07-2011, 01:05 PM
 
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(20-07-2011 03:05 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi Bucky, thanks for this input. I agree Jesus knew nothing of a rapture. The rapture was invented by Paul, a man who had never met Jesus, at least 20 or so years after Jesus' death.
The concept of the rapture is first found in Genesis, well before Paul's day. It's also found throughout the Old Testament, here's an example from Kings:

"And it came about when the LORD was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal....When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me"....He said, "You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so"....As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."

There are many examples of the rapture in the bible, here's one from the gospel of John:

"After these things Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee (or Tiberias). A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick....So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone....Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea and after getting into a boat, they started to cross the sea to Capernaum. It had already become dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them....Then, when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat....So they were willing to receive Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going. The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone....So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus. When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You get here?"

You'll notice that the boat in the above passage was immediately taken across the sea. This is a clear picture of the rapture with the boat symbolizing the church. When Jesus is in the boat with His disciples or telling them were to cast their nets, they end up catching many fish (I will make you fishers of men). But when Jesus isn't with them in the boat or guiding them, they find their nets are always empty. Its this way with the church. Only when Jesus is the head of the church can it be effective for the catch and call people to repentance. If Jesus isn't in the boat then its just bobbing up and down on the water.

Its interesting that you can find examples of the rapture in the most peculiar places and that's pretty cool as far as I'm concerned. To say that Paul influenced the concept of the rapture, which can be found from Genesis to Revelation, is really unfounded. The Holy Spirit inspired men to write about things they didn't fully understand, like the rapture, yet there's always that common thread that permeates its pages.

I want to comment on the rest of your post, but I have a broken disposal and a soon to be "angry" wife. Angry
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