Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
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23-07-2011, 01:09 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
Hi everyone,

I won't be on this forum for the next three weeks, as I'm going on vacation. I think it's best to put a pause on my research for that time, and I will continue my research when I'm back. I'm looking forward to participating in the forum again, and learning more when I'm back, but for now I will relax and enjoy myself.
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23-07-2011, 06:58 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
Enjoy your trip hope you're going somewhere cool. ?No creation museum ok? =p

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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23-07-2011, 08:39 PM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(17-06-2011 12:54 AM)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:  The bible consistently presents the earth as being old not young. The Hebrew word for day "yowm" is also the same word used for "age", an unspecified time frame. Have you ever notice that days 1 thru 6 all conclude with "And there was evening and night", but the 7th day never ends that way. In fact it never ended, according to the bible we're still in the 7th day.

It's a small point, but let me correct your statement. The Hebrew word "yowm" or "yom" does NOT mean "age, an unspecified time frame." It means "day." The recognized scholarly work of Biblical Hebrew lexicography, the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, has 3 1/2 pages of fine print on the word, listing all its uses in the Hebrew Bible. Although it can be used for a general time, as in Gen. 35:3 "the day of my distress" (= "the time of my distress"), "yowm" is never used in the sense you're talking about.

I bring this up because it illustrates what a lot of Christian apologists often do when the Bible is clearly contradicted by science and/or common sense, or when it says something that offends our modern sense of morality: they give you pseudo-definitiions of the original Hebrew (or Aramaic or Greek) so that the meaning of a verse is changed in line with what they want it to say.

Another example of this phony linguistic analysis relates to the bear-mauling incident in 2 Kings 2:23-25. The prophet Elisha is jeered at by "little boys," who mock his bald head. They apparently hit a nerve. With no access to Rogaine, Elisha curses them "in the name of the Lord," and a she-bear comes out of the forest and mangles 42 of them.

For some reason a lot of the faithful have trouble with this passage, seeing this treatment of little kids, even if they're being impudent, as a tad harsh and not exactly in line with God's famous mercy and loving-kindness. So the apologists get to work. They "analyze" the Hebrew to show that the phrase usually translated as "little boys" actually means "young men," and they bring in other "evidence" to prove it was a marauding teenage gang who received their just punishment. (I've never understood why everything suddenly becomes OK if the "boys" were 19 instead of 9, but apparently that's not as offensive.) Trouble is, the "analysis" is once again phony. The phrase can't mean anything but "little boys." Period.

You can't have it both ways. If the Bible is inerrant and literally true, then you've got to accept what it says without twisting its language. But if any of what it says is unacceptable on factual, logical, scientific, or moral grounds, then you need to acknowledge it may not be the revealed word of an omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect god after all.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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25-07-2011, 01:31 AM
 
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(23-07-2011 08:39 PM)cufflink Wrote:  
(17-06-2011 12:54 AM)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:  The bible consistently presents the earth as being old not young. The Hebrew word for day "yowm" is also the same word used for "age", an unspecified time frame. Have you ever notice that days 1 thru 6 all conclude with "And there was evening and night", but the 7th day never ends that way. In fact it never ended, according to the bible we're still in the 7th day.

It's a small point, but let me correct your statement. The Hebrew word "yowm" or "yom" does NOT mean "age, an unspecified time frame." It means "day." The recognized scholarly work of Biblical Hebrew lexicography, the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, has 3 1/2 pages of fine print on the word, listing all its uses in the Hebrew Bible. Although it can be used for a general time, as in Gen. 35:3 "the day of my distress" (= "the time of my distress"), "yowm" is never used in the sense you're talking about.

So your saying that the Hebrew word yom can be used for "general time", after you first stated that it meant "day". Is the "day" your referring a 24 hour time period or a 12 hour time period. And isn't a "general time" period really an "unspecified time" period. If this is not the case then how long is a "general time" period? And if you answered that it's unspecified...well that would be to general. Undecided

Quote:I bring this up because it illustrates what a lot of Christian apologists often do when the Bible is clearly contradicted by science and/or common sense, or when it says something that offends our modern sense of morality: they give you pseudo-definitiions of the original Hebrew (or Aramaic or Greek) so that the meaning of a verse is changed in line with what they want it to say.

What your talking about could only have been a recent development, if it were valid. That doesn't appear to be the case since some of the early church fathers considered creation days to be long periods of time.

"The belief that creation days are long periods of time is not just a recent interpretation of the scriptures, but was prevalent since the first century. Dr. Ross has published a book entitled Creation and Time, which documents in detail what first century Jewish scholars and the early Christian church fathers said regarding their interpretation of creation chronology (5). Jewish scholars include Philo and Josephus, while Christian fathers include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus (through writings of Ambrose), Clement, Origen, Lactantius, Victorinus, Methodius, Augustine, Eusebius, Basil, and Ambrose. Among this group, nearly all acknowledged the likelihood that the creation days were longer than 24 hours. The evidence presented in Creation and Time is both overwhelming and well documented (all references are given). You can read and/or download translations of the actual text of all of the early church fathers at Wheaton College's server. The collection consists of nearly forty files, averaging ~2 mb each. Alternatively, these writings can be obtained on CD from Logos Research.

All of this biblical and historical evidence has led us to conclude that the days of Genesis 1 are not literal 24 hour days, but long periods of time during which God chose to create different species of life
."
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/longdays.html

Basically all the truth bending apologist are heading off in the other direction toward Young Earth Creationism. There's more money to be made in amusement parks, museums, DVD's and home schooling material.Tongue

Quote:Another example of this phony linguistic analysis relates to the bear-mauling incident in 2 Kings...
I don't know, your first example of "phony linguistics" failed to sway me. Maybe you can elaborate further. Thanks!
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25-07-2011, 07:44 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
About the 2 kings example he's absolutely correct. As there was no real reason for the expression used to mean someone 12 or above. Their excuse is that in another part of the book the young are saved and they are those 20 and under, but it uses different words there. Anyway if you can just pick a different passage and act like it answers the problem then I demand Jesus must be a lamb and his furryness was hidden from the world =p

As far as yom I really can't see it as being such a well defined word for hunted by a freak's reasoning to be wrong. I don't know Hebrew, but all that I know about it would suggest that the word was very widely used to mean many things. A similar English analogy would be "the other day". When my dad says "the other day" he can mean any time period within 50 years. When speaking of any specific time yom is described with a second word, if you just say yom with no context it means day, but when context comes into play you must read it's meaning from the rest of the paragraph/sentence/whatever.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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25-07-2011, 09:53 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
I can't even agree with the whole ' a day with god could mean anything'...

Be that as it may, but it doesn't explain why plants came before the sun, or why water was on the earth before land.

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25-07-2011, 10:36 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
Let's face it, claiming a god is necessary for the existence of the universe because you can't think of any other way it got here is nothing more than an argument from ignorance. You cannot solve a mystery by proposing an ever bigger mystery.

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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25-07-2011, 10:41 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
I have not been keeping up with this thread but I just read two posts that I enjoyed. The first is the translation issue and/or the out of context issue. The attempt to apply multiple definitions to words is erroneous because the bible is not taught as such. People also try to use the argument that certain phrases and/or passages have to be considered in context to who they for. Also bullshit. If Jesus says that he comes not to bring peace but a sword it does not matter who he said it to. It still means that he is not the peace loving saint that Christians portray him as. The other one is the attempt to stretch out the creation story using different concepts of 'time.' Also bullshit. The bible says 6 days and no one ever questioned that week of creation before science showed it to be erroneous.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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25-07-2011, 11:15 AM
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(23-07-2011 06:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Don't you mean there are 7 quotes that the members of the Jesus seminar agree upon?

I need to check on that. I learned about the 7 quotes from another source, and need to check both the Seminar, and my (academic) sources. Stay tuned.

The Jesus Seminar agreed on more than 7 quotes, but by virtue of the voting process, places probabilities on the ones they agree on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Semin...s_of_Jesus

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25-07-2011, 08:04 PM
 
RE: Growing doubts about my Christian faith and the Bible.
(25-07-2011 11:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-07-2011 06:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Don't you mean there are 7 quotes that the members of the Jesus seminar agree upon?

I need to check on that. I learned about the 7 quotes from another source, and need to check both the Seminar, and my (academic) sources. Stay tuned.

The Jesus Seminar agreed on more than 7 quotes, but by virtue of the voting process, places probabilities on the ones they agree on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Semin...s_of_Jesus
Thanks for following that up BB. It sounded like something from the Jesus Seminar.
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