Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
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17-10-2012, 04:11 PM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
(16-10-2012 06:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hey hey you should do Thessalonians sometime. There's some hectic y'all are going to hell 'less you bow down shit in there. Like explicit. Like "Y'ALL ARE GOIN' TA HELL" shit. Know what I'm sayin' ? Hell. Like, the hot place... where *you are the braai*.

Big Grin

KC... you actually think hell is real? Where is it? Earth's core? Or some other dimension. Since heaven's no longer in the sky...

They moved heaven? Again?? They still dealing with folks trying to sneak in? Just need better security.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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17-10-2012, 09:36 PM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
(17-10-2012 04:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 03:56 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Your memory may be better than mine. Can you provide a link to where we addressed these issues?

Sure.

Link here.

Ok...I remember that thread. I've read it again. I've understood that you felt I was being harsh, and there was a lot of talk around that. I tried ( I think unsuccessfully) to steer the conversation to be about whether it is ethical to teach Christianity. I have a firm opinion about that, and so do you...you did, after all, start this thread.

I think our discussion should not be about your's or my popularity/intelligence/egoes/credibilty/manners (provided we are civil). Such things are idle chatter. I am not that interesting and neither are you. Our ideas are.

Why can't we discuss Paul? He is the creator of Christian theology. He is the author of the texts you teach as god given truth. He is, whether you acknowledge it or not, your idol, your main man, your link with god. He is the architect of the whole Christian show. You should be jumping up and down at the chance to tell me and others all about him.

I think you're afraid of what you might discover.
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18-10-2012, 08:34 AM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
(17-10-2012 09:36 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 04:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Sure.

Link here.

Ok...I remember that thread. I've read it again. I've understood that you felt I was being harsh, and there was a lot of talk around that. I tried ( I think unsuccessfully) to steer the conversation to be about whether it is ethical to teach Christianity. I have a firm opinion about that, and so do you...you did, after all, start this thread.

I think our discussion should not be about your's or my popularity/intelligence/egoes/credibilty/manners (provided we are civil). Such things are idle chatter. I am not that interesting and neither are you. Our ideas are.

Why can't we discuss Paul? He is the creator of Christian theology. He is the author of the texts you teach as god given truth. He is, whether you acknowledge it or not, your idol, your main man, your link with god. He is the architect of the whole Christian show. You should be jumping up and down at the chance to tell me and others all about him.

I think you're afraid of what you might discover.

Nah, been down that road before too.

Smile

I'm quite aware of "Paulinity".

But, if you want to talk about it, I guess we can.

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18-10-2012, 09:07 AM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
Does verse 29 suggest that only firstborn sons be elect? Since you view this as a verse about election how do you take the focus in the passage of being a firstborn?

Starcrash already mentioned the (shit happens to everyone) argument. So I would kinda want to know what makes you think in the idea of election that the favoritism isn't this arbitrary?

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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18-10-2012, 09:05 PM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
(18-10-2012 08:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 09:36 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Ok...I remember that thread. I've read it again. I've understood that you felt I was being harsh, and there was a lot of talk around that. I tried ( I think unsuccessfully) to steer the conversation to be about whether it is ethical to teach Christianity. I have a firm opinion about that, and so do you...you did, after all, start this thread.

I think our discussion should not be about your's or my popularity/intelligence/egoes/credibilty/manners (provided we are civil). Such things are idle chatter. I am not that interesting and neither are you. Our ideas are.

Why can't we discuss Paul? He is the creator of Christian theology. He is the author of the texts you teach as god given truth. He is, whether you acknowledge it or not, your idol, your main man, your link with god. He is the architect of the whole Christian show. You should be jumping up and down at the chance to tell me and others all about him.

I think you're afraid of what you might discover.

Nah, been down that road before too.

Smile

I'm quite aware of "Paulinity".

But, if you want to talk about it, I guess we can.

You're hardly bowling me over with your enthusiasm LOL. Feel free to comment in the post I've started about Paul.
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23-10-2012, 10:16 AM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
So, I had to split up my lesson into two parts. I'll be doing the second part this coming Sunday. The first part went well enough, I think... QC said it was well received, but I haven't heard any complaints yet... so I guess that's good.

Anyway, here it is:

In order to understand the fullness of God’s reconciliation, we have to look closely and intricately at what Paul is telling the early Christians.

Our focal verses are going to be Colossians 1:15-23, Romans 8:28-30, and 2 Corinthians 5:14-18. We will be examining the original language and the meaning behind what Paul was trying to convey in terms of reconciliation.

Let’s define “reconciliation”.

The American English definition is: to restore to friendship or harmony, to settle or resolve

The Greek words katallagé and katallassó are the primary forms of “reconciled”. They mean “restore to favor”, “exchange”, and “I change”. So, when Paul speaks of “reconciliation” in his letters to the early Christians, it is in a sense of how God has changed things in order to restore the subject to God’s favor.

Now we will ask a series of questions regarding God’s reconciliation.

1) Who or what is reconciled?

Col 5:20
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

In short, everything has to be reconciled, but let’s take a really close look at this verse and one of the most misunderstood and misused Grecian words: pas

“Pas” is translated “all”, “every”, “all things”, or “everything”; however, it is a robust word that can mean many different incarnations of “all”.

In verse 20, “pantas” a form of “pas” is used. This word means: Every class of men as well as, in context, all created things. First, let’s focus on “every class of men”.

So, Paul is saying that God’s reconciliation isn’t just for a certain type or class of person; all kinds of people are to be reconciled through Christ’s blood. This was a common lesson for the early church – that is, salvation isn’t just for Jews.

So, with the addition of verse 19, this is what Paul is saying:

For the Father is well pleased that the complete abundance (God’s fullness and abundance) dwells in Christ, and through Christ, Christ will bring all types of men and all created things into a complete change and perfect harmony because Christ has made this peace and harmony; this reconciliation, through the blood of Christ’s cross, whether it be in heaven or on this earth or anywhere else.

Now, let’s look at “pantas” again, in context of Paul’s statement, and how it relates to all created things but differentiates different types of men. To do this, we have to backtrack to verse 15.

Per the Greek:

V15
Christ is not merely similar but is the likeness of the unseen God and is the firstborn, the inheritor of the human race.

V16
For by Christ, the totality of all things in its most absolute sense were created, in heaven and on this earth; seen and unseen, whether they are kings that sit on a throne, whether they are an angelic lord or an angel or a demon; whether it be any authority; human, demon, or angel – everything, in its utmost, universal entirety, was created by Christ for Christ.

This is a profound verse. In this verse, Paul uses a form of “pas” which is “panta”. Panta means everything in the most absolute way. And, just to make it crystal clear, Paul reiterates that everything, even the most powerful things, the invisible things, and anything in between was made by God for Christ. Paul does not leave anything out… nothing.

Yes, this means, anything that is, in its most absolute form, was created for Christ. All good. All bad. Demons, angels, kings, the earth, evil, sin, love, peace, joy, humanity… this was all created by God for Christ; so a purpose could be served.

V17
Christ was and is prior to everything in its most absolute sense that was created, and in Christ all things in the most absolute sense were arrange by Christ and put together as a whole by Christ.

V18
Christ is the cornerstone of the spiritual body of those that are believers in Christ; Christ is altogether, through a very difficult passage of returning to life from the dead, the inheritor of humanity, and Christ, Himself, will have complete rights to the entire herd (believers).

To note, Paul uses another form of “pas” in this verse (pasin) which represents a specific whole as in a herd, in this case, the whole of believers.

Now, in the context of the passages in regards to reconciliation, Paul is saying that all things are created by God for Christ and will be reconciled by Christ. Christ’s sacrificed reconciled the believers, the herd, and not just Jews, but every type of man, whether rich or poor, Jew or Gentile.

I would like to also note, that the grammar shows God in an active sense; meaning, everything else is passive, and He actively reconciles all things – which further means, nothing could be reconciled on its own. God is doing the action.

Now, this leads us into some very deep theology. The next question is:

2) How is the herd reconciled?

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

So what does this mean?

Again, let’s go to the Greek:

In verse 28, another form of “pas” is used. It means the sum or totality of a certain definite thing; based on the context of what is being shown.

So, with that let’s look at verse 28.

V28
We know that God causes certain things to happen and these things are used by Him to work together for a suited purpose for those that love God; and these people are called by God according to God’s purpose.

Again, please note, that this is all active. God is acting upon His herd. So, this verse is saying that God causes certain things to happen but all these things serve a purpose for those that He actively called to serve God’s purpose and God’s plan.

Before I examine the Greek extensively in 29, I would like to point out a few things:

First, what does it mean to be “conformed to the image of His Son”? The Greek word for “conformed” literally means “conformed” which means, “to be similar or identical; also : to be in agreement or harmony”.

We are to be like Christ. But, what does this mean? According to scripture, Christ is supposed to impute his righteous onto us so that we can be sinless and worthy of heaven.

So, to be conformed to the image of Christ means that we are to become sinless and worthy of heaven.

Secondly, what does it mean to be “firstborn”? We’ve seen this a couple of times already.

What Paul is conveying is the well-known Jewish tradition of the firstborn son being the inheritor of the Father’s wealth. Christ is the inheritor of humanity.

Now let’s look at the Greek:

V29
For those whom He knew before anything, He actively and purposefully chose and preordained them to be sinless and blameless so that they can be worthy of heaven, so that those that are conformed to be like Christ who was a part of humanity and is the inheritor of humanity

Now, after identifying those that are going to be reconciled, Paul explains the reconciliation process in verse 30. Let’s look at the Greek.

V30
And those whom He purposefully chose, He also invited, and those whom He invited; in respect to God who judges and declares the men who will put faith in Christ to be righteous and acceptable to him, and accordingly fit to receive the pardon of their sins and eternal life; and those that in respect to God who judges and declares the men who will put faith in Christ to be righteous and acceptable to him, and accordingly fit to receive the pardon of their sins and eternal life are also brought by God into a condition of heavenly dignity.

Without getting into too much controversial theology, I want to point out that this is translated directly from the Greek.

So, according to Romans 8, the answer to the question of how people are reconciled is this:

God chose those whom He was going to reconcile before existence and all the things that happen are planned by God for the purpose of Christ.

The last question I am going to answer is:

3) What is this reconciliation?

For this, we will be looking at 2 Corinthians 5:14-18
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

Once again, Paul is conveying God in the active sense. God is acting upon everything else. Also, “pas” is used again in the form that means “a definite whole group”. With that in mind, let’s look at verse 14 and 15.

V14-15
Christ’s love compels us, as we have correctly decided, one died for a definite whole group which means that that definite whole group also died; and Christ died for that definite whole group, so that those that live for themselves by their own rules should no longer keep doing this, but instead live for Christ who died and rose again on their behalf.

So, Christ’s love acts on us and compels us to stop living as we once lived and instead live for Christ. The interesting part here is that according to the grammar, Christ’s love has to first act upon us in order for us to respond; we cannot act upon Christ’s love.

V16-17
From this moment on, we will not look at anyone in an accusatory way according to their human nature; even though we have known Christ in human nature, Christ is no longer this. If anyone is of Christ, that person is regenerated through Christ; that man’s old moral nature and character is dead, and the new nature through Christ will come.

It’s worth noting here that the context of “anyone” and “no one” is in regards to that which Paul is speaking – the whole definite group.

V19
The certain definite whole of things that was just described are from God, and again, it is God, and only God, who can restore favor to God, but through Christ, God uses others to share the way of reconciliation that is only available through God.

This is powerful verse. It tells us that only God can reconcile us, but He uses us to spark a regeneration in others through which God reconciles them.

So, the answer to the question “What is this reconciliation” is that it is God transforming us into a whole new thing. Our favor with God is restored, and we are like Christ.

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23-10-2012, 05:32 PM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2012 06:58 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
Hi KC

I've read what you taught.

What amazes me is that you're willing to spend (obviously) hours trying to make sense out of what Paul wrote, yet not willing or able to discuss his legitimacy.

Do you think Paul's "Christ" was Jesus? If so, why didn't Paul describe him? Mention even one of his miracles? Talk about his teachings? Quote him?

ps Why do I care? Because if I only hear my own story I'll start to believe my own shit.
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23-10-2012, 10:19 PM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
"Guess who's teaching next Sunday...?"

Oh wtf is wrong with this place.....Shocking

Apparently, people here actually give a shit? Huh
yeah, don't worry...I'm leaving... and not quick enough either.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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24-10-2012, 06:01 AM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
It is immoral to inculcate children with lies.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-10-2012, 06:26 AM
RE: Guess who's teaching next Sunday again.
(24-10-2012 06:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is immoral to inculcate children with lies.

That's why we eat them. Better than lying to them.
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