Gun Control
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16-10-2014, 02:11 PM
RE: Gun Control
(16-10-2014 02:03 PM)Sam Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  It matters because it is language and language is used to communicate.

If you are arguing that X is ok, but Y is not then we need to agree on what X and Y actually are.

But does it really matter, whether or not one person refers to it by the wrong name, or by a common name, when both sides know exactly what object they are talking about.

Does it really affect the debate if one person calls something a "machine gun", and the other calls it a "selective fire rifle" or whatever? In my opinion, its nothing more than a diversion tactic... Evading real issues by focusing on triviality.

If someone talks about assault rifles being available for public purchase, whether or not that's technically the correct term, everyone knows that they mean semi-automatic rifles, with large magazines.

Nope. 'Everybody' doesn't know.
Words and terms have actual definitions. An assault rifle has a definition, a machine gun has a different definition. "Assault weapon" has yet another definition which is a legal definition.

We need to agree to what we are talking about or there will be misunderstandings and people talking past each other.

What is the resistance to learning a few simple facts to aid discussion?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-10-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Gun Control
I'm against guns in general, but Chas does have a point. You can't legislate anything until you define it.

You can't say assault rifles are illegal, and then point at a non-assault rifle and say, "but aren't assault rifles illegal?"

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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16-10-2014, 02:27 PM
RE: Gun Control
(16-10-2014 02:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 02:03 PM)Sam Wrote:  But does it really matter, whether or not one person refers to it by the wrong name, or by a common name, when both sides know exactly what object they are talking about.

Does it really affect the debate if one person calls something a "machine gun", and the other calls it a "selective fire rifle" or whatever? In my opinion, its nothing more than a diversion tactic... Evading real issues by focusing on triviality.

If someone talks about assault rifles being available for public purchase, whether or not that's technically the correct term, everyone knows that they mean semi-automatic rifles, with large magazines.

Nope. 'Everybody' doesn't know.
Words and terms have actual definitions. An assault rifle has a definition, a machine gun has a different definition. "Assault weapon" has yet another definition which is a legal definition.

We need to agree to what we are talking about or there will be misunderstandings and people talking past each other.

What is the resistance to learning a few simple facts to aid discussion?

I think everybody does know... If there's a major shooting incident, and the gunman was armed with an AR-15, and in the aftermath someone says they believe such firearms should be banned, getting down to technical terms is irrelevant.

But, it always seems to happen... Pretty much every debate I've seen on the issue, always seems to revert back to minor trivialities. The impression I get is that gun owners think that unless you're an expert on firearms, you have no right to criticize them.

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16-10-2014, 02:29 PM
RE: Gun Control
(16-10-2014 02:27 PM)Sam Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 02:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope. 'Everybody' doesn't know.
Words and terms have actual definitions. An assault rifle has a definition, a machine gun has a different definition. "Assault weapon" has yet another definition which is a legal definition.

We need to agree to what we are talking about or there will be misunderstandings and people talking past each other.

What is the resistance to learning a few simple facts to aid discussion?

I think everybody does know... If there's a major shooting incident, and the gunman was armed with an AR-15, and in the aftermath someone says they believe such firearms should be banned, getting down to technical terms is irrelevant.

But, it always seems to happen... Pretty much every debate I've seen on the issue, always seems to revert back to minor trivialities. The impression I get is that gun owners think that unless you're an expert on firearms, you have no right to criticize them.

Here's the rub: define "such guns".

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-10-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: Gun Control
(16-10-2014 02:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 02:27 PM)Sam Wrote:  I think everybody does know... If there's a major shooting incident, and the gunman was armed with an AR-15, and in the aftermath someone says they believe such firearms should be banned, getting down to technical terms is irrelevant.

But, it always seems to happen... Pretty much every debate I've seen on the issue, always seems to revert back to minor trivialities. The impression I get is that gun owners think that unless you're an expert on firearms, you have no right to criticize them.

Here's the rub: define "such guns".

Alright, what do you class an AR-15 as?

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16-10-2014, 02:35 PM
RE: Gun Control
(16-10-2014 02:31 PM)Sam Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 02:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  Here's the rub: define "such guns".

Alright, what do you class an AR-15 as?

The AR-15 is a small caliber, semi-automatic rifle.

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16-10-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: Gun Control
Even so, its besides the point... Since the Sandy Hook shooting, the anti-gun side have been calling for a ban on semi-automatic rifles, with high capacity magazines.

Whether that applies to one category, or several isn't part of the debate... If the constitution were amended to outlaw weapons with those characteristics/capabilities, we wouldn't need to fart about with definitions.

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16-10-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: Gun Control
(16-10-2014 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 02:31 PM)Sam Wrote:  Alright, what do you class an AR-15 as?

The AR-15 is a small caliber, semi-automatic rifle.

So if I stated that I believe semi-automatic rifles should be outlawed, or that magazine size should be limited do we really need to get down to whether that means "assault rifle" or something else... Because I don't think it does.

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16-10-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Gun Control
(16-10-2014 02:40 PM)Sam Wrote:  Even so, its besides the point... Since the Sandy Hook shooting, the anti-gun side have been calling for a ban on semi-automatic rifles, with high capacity magazines.

Whether that applies to one category, or several isn't part of the debate... If the constitution were amended to outlaw weapons with those characteristics/capabilities, we wouldn't need to fart about with definitions.

But the Constitution or the courts would have to fart around with the definition and you would have to understand the definition.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-10-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: Gun Control
(16-10-2014 02:42 PM)Sam Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  The AR-15 is a small caliber, semi-automatic rifle.

So if I stated that I believe semi-automatic rifles should be outlawed, or that magazine size should be limited do we really need to get down to whether that means "assault rifle" or something else... Because I don't think it does.

You're right, we wouldn't have to because the terms 'semi-automatic' and 'magazine' have clear, unambiguous definitions that we agree on.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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