Gun Control - a discussion
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26-07-2012, 06:05 PM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
Accidental deaths that are TRUE accidents and not just a gang member's bullet missing and striking someone innocent are rare though. I'm more scared of being struck by lightning.

The other countries with high murder rates have the social issues as well, even though they have higher amounts of gun control.

Instituting more gun control here won't fix those issues and we will still have the murders and even mass killings.

We should try to make life better overall. A gun ban won't do that when people still live in poverty and education levels are low and drug use is high, (not talking about pot of course).

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-I will show you fear in a handful of dust.-T.S. Eliot
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26-07-2012, 06:32 PM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
(26-07-2012 06:05 PM)il_bandit Wrote:  Accidental deaths that are TRUE accidents and not just a gang member's bullet missing and striking someone innocent are rare though.

They really aren't. There are many household "accidents", whether with children or adults. I'm working with old data, here, but unless everyone on the planet got a lot more conscientious in the last few years...

The denial that some of you are in is just bewildering. I live in the UK. Gun crime (especially when compared to the US) is very rare. Mostly, guns are used by criminals against other criminals, or in robberies (usually un-fired, and may often be replicas) or (very unusually) against innocent members of the public.

I have absolutely no angst about the loss of any liberties. Hardly anyone has guns, therefore hardly anyone needs guns. I'm not suggesting that you unilaterally give up your constitutional right to bear arms while you wait for everyone else to do the same. Gun controls should exist throughout your country with an amnesty (and recompense) for those handed in.

Then guess what... far fewer gun deaths. This isn't a fantasy world that I'm describing, it's how most civilised countries work.

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26-07-2012, 07:36 PM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
RC - numerically, that number is accurate - and staggering.

In fairness, over half that number kill themselves with guns - over 18,000 a year (which in and of itself is disconcerting).

One could argue that people motivated to commit suicide would simply find another way out, but you do have to think that the accessibility to guns plays in to the numbers.

I don't think there are any easy answers to the problem. Bans on large capacity clips will not solve the problem - but it might help save the loves of tens, maybe hundreds in a given year - but then again, we are talking about tens of thousands...

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26-07-2012, 07:44 PM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
(26-07-2012 07:36 PM)Seasbury Wrote:  RC - numerically, that number is accurate - and staggering.

I actually rounded down. The average would equate to 10.5 9/11s... but I like to be conservative with figures, as it immediately removes the riposte that anything is being inflated to make a point.

And, yes... suicide is a mentionable inclusion in those stats. And why not? It's quick and painless. I might have been one of those statistics (at various points in my life) if I had access to a gun.
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26-07-2012, 07:49 PM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
Most accidental deaths happen when people do stupid things with the guns, and fail to educate their kids about it. Most of the actual accidents I hear about happen either from fear of a home invader, which is bad, but it happens, and can happen with other weapons as well, or kids playing with them.

That's just something that needs to be a responsibility of the parent if they have kids and guns. Educate them and don't hide them away while loaded. Of course, parents aren't always smart either.

Way more people die from drunk driving than gun accidents. I really think drunk driving is a big problem because I read every day about people arrested or cited for drunk driving and they keep doing it again and again. Someone I know got out of jail and had to go to alcohol classes, and of course, they still drink and drive. He drove 85 mph on a dirt road and flew off the end of the T intersection and somehow lived...and he's still a dumbass. People will do stupid things and it's difficult to fix the problems.

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-I will show you fear in a handful of dust.-T.S. Eliot
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27-07-2012, 11:37 PM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
You know what's scary? Go ahead, ban guns. It wouldn't do a thing, there are so many guns in circulation and so many people with deep-rooted attachment to their "right to bear arms" that you'd have a huge problem trying to remove them. Guns don't end up going out of service over time either, so banning new sales would never reduce the stock.

Then there's also the fact that building a gun of your own out of parts from Home Depot is trivial. I've done it - my version was a hand cannon that shot potatoes, but I could easily put together a version capable of firing trailer hitches. Or just throw a ton of nails in behind some wadding and you've got a massive shotgun. Of course I'd never use it for evil, but if you have the intent to do something crazy like the Aurora killer the law can't stop you via banning weaponry.

Spud guns aren't weak if something besides a potato is used:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP8oCvacv...re=related

Now that doesn't mean that I think the current system is perfect - it isn't. We need to have mandatory registration, education, etc. so that the people that do get guns legally don't end up having accidents like so many do. (kids finding them especially).

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30-07-2012, 02:59 AM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
(25-07-2012 10:01 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  Uhm, yes it will. Look at society A&B. If James Holmes lived in a country with gun controls, do you think that he'd have managed to get guns? I haven't a clue how to get hold of that kind of weaponry and if I did, I'd have a very hard time trying to get it. By which time, I'd have someone like MI5 watching my every move... and justifiably so.

Yes, he would have managed to get guns if he wanted them. As the old adage says, if you outlaw guns from the law abiding only outlaws will have guns. The point is that people who intend to commit violence with a gun do not care about the law. There comes a point that by increasing gun control you actually make it harder to control guns because they will be smuggled into the country and sold on the black market without any kind of tracking. I have no idea how to get Marijuana or Cocaine but there sure is a lot of it floating around considering that its illegal and can put you in jail if you're caught with it.

(25-07-2012 10:33 AM)Spivey May Wrote:  I know how different they are. What I am saying is outlaw guns entirely, and those who want them will still get them. There may not be as many, but they will still be there.

Again, if someone wants to hurt people bad enough they will find a way. Obviously we can't stop people from making explosives either.

Not only will those who want them still get them, but those who want them with get them, be more likely to use them and the rest of us law abiding citizens will have no one to defend them so the random shootings will actually end up being deadlier. People think the police are supposed to protect them but really, where does your personal responsibility to protect yourself end? This is a sceptics forum for all intents and purposes so here's an experiment you can do. Call the Police and order a Pizza for delivery and see which one gets to your house first. If I were a betting man I'd say you would probably be eating when the cops arrived.

A few days ago I purchased a .45 Semi automatic pistol (Ruger P345) for home defense and eventually as a concealed carry weapon once I take the class. I am a member of the US Air Force and I purchased the weapon from the base exchange on my base. I have a security clearance and I'm trained to handle a fire arm. I still had to go through a total of three background checks to get the weapon, I wasn't allowed to purchase ammunition on the same day as the weapon and I had 72 hours from the time I purchased it to go to a local police substation and register the weapon with the police. Part of the registration process required me to provide a spent shell casing to the police so they could send it to their crime lab to keep on file for forensic evidence on the chance that my weapon is used to commit a crime. The last weapon I bought before this one, an el'cheepo .380 semi-auto pistol, I had to purchase, pay for, go through all the same garbage AND I had to wait 8 days before I could take it home but that was in the mid 1990's and I wasn't in the military yet. Its not like we are just giving guns away to every tom dick and harry that wants one. It is a royal pain in the butt to buy a weapon in the United States.
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30-07-2012, 03:13 AM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
(25-07-2012 11:29 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  I'm not actively anti or pro hunting. I just see it as a questionable activity with very few good grounds... none of which outweigh the problems of gun ownership. I can see that it would be "fun" to go hunting, but I also don't admire those who do. So... you bested a non-violent, non-problematic creature of nature using a high-tech piece of machinery? Oh, you are so awesome, you really are. Here... advance a few rungs on the Ladder of Manliness ™.

There are better ways for people with low self-esteem to improve themselves. That's all.

It has nothing to do with self-esteemRolleyes Unfortunately, humans in general suck at maintaining our environment. Literally, every time we have tried to manage the environment we have screwed it up. Just look at the history of Yellowstone national park for the perfect example. There are very few predators left in the US so hunting is a very important part of managing the wildlife we do have. Without predator animals to thin the herds for example deer would over populate and throw off the ecosystems in their habitat. basically, they would clean out all the food in their area and kill off everything else. but don't take my word for it:

from Hunting - Can it Be Beneficial to the Environment?

Hunting as a Population Control Mechanism

According to the American Forestry Association, "under proper regulations, hunting should be considered a tool of management by owners of forest and range holders..." The Wilderness Society, "recognizes hunting as a legitimate use in wilderness areas...subject to appropriate regulation for species protection." The National Audobon Society, "...has never been opposed to the hunting of game species if that hunting is done ethically and in accordance with laws and regulations designed to prevent depletion of the wildlife resource...we will advocate restrictions on hunting, including the complete closure of a hunting season, whenever we are convinced that the welfare of the species involved requires it..." These are quotes from some of America's largest conservation and environmental groups. While they give little credence to the notion that hunting benefits the environment, they do serve as evidence that hunting is probably not a liability to the environment.

The famed conservationist, A.S. Leopold wrote in his well respected article "Wildlife Management in the National Parks" (April 1962), "Many herds are migratory and can be controlled by public hunting outside the park boundaries....This is by far the best and most widely applied method of controlling park populations of ungulates." Here, Leopold is talking primarily about controlling populations of elk, but also of other hoofed animals in recognition that the biome in which they exist will not naturally maintain a healthy and sustainable population. In recent years, predatory animals like wolves, bears, and mountain lions have increased in numbers in some parks, but still are in most cases unable to do the job of maintaining a sustainable and healthy population of deer, elk, and other animals.

In conclusion, it appears that hunting can indeed serve as one of the tools to help maintain animal populations at a level where they can remain healthy and viable.
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30-07-2012, 04:15 AM
RE: Gun Control - a discussion
(25-07-2012 12:17 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  Do you actually deny that America has a problem? Is it too unpatriotic to admit to such a thing, or does it just irritate your nadgers when a non-American says it?

You can't claim that they're needed for self-defence without ignoring the bigger picture; why are they only needed in America for self-defence? Well, because everyone has guns. That isn't an answer to the problem - that's just further verification that there is a problem.

The General Social Survey (GSS) is a primary source for data on firearm ownership, with surveys periodically done by other organizations such as Harris Interactive.[60] In 2004, 36.5% of Americans reported having a gun in their home and in 1997, 40% of Americans reported having a gun in their homes. At this time there were approximately 44 million gun owners in the United States. This means that 25 percent of all adults owned at least one firearm. These owners possessed 192 million firearms, of which 65 million were handguns

When I searched for mass shootings and rampage killings in the US this is the list I found:

List of Rampage Killers

Now, I don't know that every rampage killing is listed on that site and it is a Wikipedia link so its accuracy is suspect at best but just a cursory glance gives me a total of 6 mass killings since 2001 in the United States. Interestingly enough, the UK had one in 2010 where a 52 year old Derrick Bird killed 12 and injured 11 people in Copeland Cumbria. I wasn't expecting any mass shootings in the UK after the fall of the IRA.

Now, when you compare the population size of the US (314,010,000 - July 30, 2012) to the population of the UK (62,262,000 - July 1, 2010) that give us one mass shooting for every 52,335,000 people in the US verses one mass shooting for every 62,262,000 people in the UK over the same time period. Now I am legitimately terrible at math but that looks like you are about 15% more likely to be the victim of a mass shooting in the US than you are in the UK. Once again, I suck at math so feel free to correct me. I won't take it personally... Anyway you look at it though, a one in 52 million shot is still pretty low. I also found it interesting that during the same time frame discussed above there were 8 mass shootings in China and in 1996 China, for all intents and purposes outlawed the private ownership of firearms. Based on these numbers, no I don't think the US has much more of a gun problem than the UK does if what we are talking about is mass shootings.

If we are just talking Crime in general according to Crime Statistics > Total crimes (per capita) (most recent) by country the UK loses with 85 crimes per 1000 population verses the US's 80 crimes per 1000 population. So I guess there is some truth to the idea that criminals are slightly less likely to commit crimes if they are afraid they'll get shot.

(26-07-2012 02:21 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  Because those issues are not unique to America.

So based on this comment your whole point in the original post is not so much about gun control but an attack on American values in general?
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