Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
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07-06-2012, 07:07 AM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
(07-06-2012 06:52 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-06-2012 05:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  As I said, I was responding to the statement that "nobody in, for example, Germany ...".
I said that nobody needs a gun to protect himself. The fact that people think they need one doesn't change anything at that, does it? You do not need a gun to protect yourself in Germany, because the security is already very high. I've never met anyone who owns a gun or someone who thinks that owning a gun is necessary in this country. I do not intend to generalize the American people, but the majority of people who claim that they need to own a gun to protect themselves seem to come from the U.S.A.
I will again disagree with 'nobody'. Are there no armed robberies or home invasions in Germany?

The main reason for a defensive weapon is summed up in "When seconds count, the police are minutes away".

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07-06-2012, 07:51 AM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2012 07:54 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
(07-06-2012 07:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  I will again disagree with 'nobody'. Are there no armed robberies or home invasions in Germany?

The main reason for a defensive weapon is summed up in "When seconds count, the police are minutes away".
They are rather rare and even though these crimes sometimes happen, they don't happen frequently to anyone so that he would have to buy a gun.

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07-06-2012, 09:09 AM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
(05-06-2012 03:33 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  If we're really gonna humour the rights/responsible ownership BS then seriously, why can't I own heavy weaponry such as a tank, missile launcher, nuke?

Is the that not limiting my freedom and denying a responsible owner as well?
I think the difference is the use of the item. You can't use a nuke to hunt or defend yourself from an intruder. I'd be okay with you owning a tank. It's just a truck with a big ass gun on it. But even it has no practical purpose.

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07-06-2012, 09:10 AM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
Quote: You vastly oversimplify what would actually happen should you find an
intruder in your house. You will probably be groggy, have difficulty
aiming (unadjusted eyes, either from flipping on the lights or not
having your "night eyes" yet), and determining who the target is (family
member on late night bathroom visit). If you miss the first shot or
two, you're not going to be able to make followup shots very easy as
you're eyesight will have spots from the muzzle flash and you'll
probably be shaken from firing a weapon indoors. Do you actually know
how loud a gun is indoors, without earplugs? Will you freeze if you end
up in that situation? Hard to know, but the fact that only 215 people
were legally killed in self defense using a firearm in 2009 points to
the fact that this situation is rare. How many would-be robbers ran
away? How many got away? How many killed the homeowner with their gun or
even the homeowner's own gun? How many would have run away even if
confronted with a baseball bat instead? It's not a simple calculation,
not is it necessarily common enough to be the sole reason for owning a
gun.



The problem with keeping a gun for home protection and self defense is
that the necessary precautions to keep it from being accessed by kids or
others reduces its usefulness in protecting you.
This will not happen with proper training and practice. If you're gonna own a gun for self defense, as I do, you train regularly with it. I've received quite a bit of professional firearms training with the United States Shooting Academy in Tulsa, OK as well as from smaller firearms instructors - far more than the average police officer has. I frequent ranges and do a lot of practice drills at home. I know the layout of my house, entrance and exit points, have role played out various attacks and defenses in my mind and trained for them. My personal defense and concealed carry weapons are specifically designed for low light conditions; tritium night sights, LED weapon lights, red dot optics, give me an edge in low light conditions. In fact, I prefer to fight in a dark house as it gives me a tactical advantage over the other guy. I fight like a train and train like a fight. I WILL survive. I WILL win.

Quote: You also probably scared everyone around you. Not everyone knows it's
legal or would understand why you would need one to be safe.
I don't care what the ignorant public at large thinks of it. I will live my life as I choose and I will not be threatened or harmed by this sort of scum who wants to fuck with me. When they want to grow up and act like adults, I'll treat them that way. If they want to act like curs, I've got the stick!

Quote:

Afghan militants killed: 8,587

Afghan civilians killed: 8,813

U.S. soldiers killed: 1,140

Contractors & other soldiers killed: 1,170



Yes, the Afghans are "winning"... You really think they'd survive a
1:7.5 kill:death ratio? We could easily quash all the terrorists, the
only problem is that'd require wiping out most of the civilians too
(we're already doing quite the job of that...) If the roles were
reversed (which is what it'd be for US citizens to be trying to
overthrow their government), it'd be no-contest. Your goal would have to
be taking the country by force, not blowing up a few troops here and
there (and getting 7 of your guys killed for every one of them, while
you're at it). If it comes to a situation where firearm ownership is
even remotely required to defend against a tyrannical government, the US
would already be down shit creek...
Bob Dylan once sang "You can win the war by loosing all the battles". Afghanistan is a prime example of that. All those dead, nearly $4 trillion in national treasure spent, and we're not one step closer to resolving it. It's a military graveyard. Has been for thousands of years.

Quote:Do you know where most crooks get their weapons? Straw sales, corrupt
dealers and by stealing them. Outlaw or severely restrict sales of guns
and you're cutting down on the first two. Fewer gun sales --> straw
sales are more difficult, corrupt dealers have less supply - I'd also
require FFLs to have inspections of their premises (to prove they are
legitimate businesses) and audits of all their records of sale. I'd get
rid of the garage FFL dealers... Sorry, but not worth the access to guns
from corrupt dealers. Theft of guns is a very small percentage of
overall gun trafficking.
Actually most come from other criminals or family members, so more laws really won't counter this.

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Of the weapons that came from retail stores and pawn shops, there are already laws on the books to prevent these, so a straw purchase is still not deterred by law. The FFLs really aren't the problem here.

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07-06-2012, 09:10 AM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
(05-06-2012 04:06 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  3) What if we apply it on a national basis? Should all countries be allowed nuclear weapons for the same reasons?
Yes.

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07-06-2012, 03:53 PM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
(07-06-2012 09:10 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Yes.

Wait, you think the solution to the threat of nuclear war is to arm every country on Earth with nukes?!

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07-06-2012, 03:56 PM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
It'll stop the ruffianly little countries like Zim. They'll try to pull of an armed robbery and get nuked back to the stone age. Oh wait. We're already there Dodgy
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07-06-2012, 04:44 PM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
(05-06-2012 11:48 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(05-06-2012 11:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are 7,200,000 registered firearms owned by approximately 2,000,000 licensed citizens in Germany,
and an estimated 17,000,000 unregistered firearms.

Self-defense is a self-evident right. This includes protection from tyranny.
The raw number of gun owners doesn't mean anything. You wouldn't believe just how strict the gun laws in Germany are. For a "normal person", it is impossible to get your hands on a gun, other than by buying one on the black market. In order to get one legally, you either have to be member of a sportsclub or you must have a job which requires you to carry a weapon, such as being a policemen, a forest ranger, etc. You are not allowed to buy a weapon purely for self-defense purposes.

I haven't done enough research about the gun laws in the USA to form a profound opinion, but as far as I know you can get a rifle in certain states just by opening a bank account.
In Texas, they've had several buy a car/truck, get a gun free promotions... Not a joke, unfortunately.

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07-06-2012, 05:57 PM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
(07-06-2012 03:53 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(07-06-2012 09:10 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Yes.

Wait, you think the solution to the threat of nuclear war is to arm every country on Earth with nukes?!
I think that if any other country told us to get rid of our nukes we'd tell them to fuck off. Why should any country react any differently? And in case you haven't noticed, defensive nukes do prevent offensive nukes.

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07-06-2012, 09:59 PM
RE: Gun Control (is Bullshit?)
(07-06-2012 03:53 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(07-06-2012 09:10 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Yes.

Wait, you think the solution to the threat of nuclear war is to arm every country on Earth with nukes?!
It's not as silly as it sounds.

Think about it, cold war anyone? Why didn't that shit hit the fan? Because nobody wanted to get nuked by the other.
Cuban missile crisis, USSR could have nuked USA but in turn been nuked so it didn't happen.


As for gun control, I don't understand the excuse that you need to defend yourself.
ie: Intruder, goes into your house with a gun takes your shit and leaves. Now if you pulled a gun on that intruder he's gonna shoot you. Now what could have simply been a burglary is now a homicide and you're dead.
Same with on the street or anywhere else.
If one person has a gun it is clear who's in charge and he gets the money or whatever then buggers off. But if two people have a gun someone's getting shot..
So really it comes down to weather you value material possessions over some strangers life. Which I guess why gun related murder is so high in America.

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