Gun Control thoughts
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13-08-2016, 05:48 AM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
(13-08-2016 05:20 AM)The Dark One Wrote:  
Quote:You know how much I like and respect you- I hope- FC, so try to hear this and not just react to it...we’ve all been trained like Pavlov’s Pooches to slobber at any of these words, I’m afraid.

This goes both ways. It would be refreshing to discuss in the spirtit of understanding each other. The pro-gun faction also goes rabid at the drop of a dime, neither response is constructive.

Yes...thus my use of the word "we've"...

James,
Please use the in-post reply button to automatically quote the post to which you are replying. The way you did it mixes the original comment by you and FC's reply in the same quote box. This can cause later confusion to those who have skipped over the earlier posts.

Thanks.

FC Wrote:You have extrapolated meaning and intent and gone off on a tangent without addressing my simple comment that, “A tool specifically designed to kill has to be, in my view, regulated differently than say a table saw.”

If we cannot agree on the most basic premise that a firearm is designed to kill then there’s nothing left to discuss.

TDO Wrote:You seem to cherry pick certain things and ignore the balance of my posts...I said I disagreed that firearms were originally specifically designed to kill human beings.

I'm confused as to why you are disagreeing with something that FC did not argue. He did not argue that firearms were were originally specifically designed to kill human beings... he pointed out that they were originally specifically designed to kill.

Did you genuinely misread or were you being deliberately contentious?

Consider

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13-08-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
(13-08-2016 05:20 AM)The Dark One Wrote:  
Quote:You know how much I like and respect you- I hope- FC, so try to hear this and not just react to it...we’ve all been trained like Pavlov’s Pooches to slobber at any of these words, I’m afraid.

This goes both ways. It would be refreshing to discuss in the spirtit of understanding each other. The pro-gun faction also goes rabid at the drop of a dime, neither response is constructive.

Yes...thus my use of the word "we've"...


Quote:First, what is NOT self evident to me is that these are tools designed specifically to kill human beings. I actually have no idea if the original firearm was developed more in response to pressure to kill people or to feed families. (Nobody, please, jump in here with your 2016 viewpoint and tell me how vegan we're supposed to be...) Regardless,
I can name dozens of things whose original purpose differs significantly from it's current purpose. Everything evolves.

Quote:You have extrapolated meaning and intent and gone off on a tangent without addressing my simple comment that, “A tool specifically designed to kill has to be, in my view, regulated differently than say a table saw.”

If we cannot agree on the most basic premise that a firearm is designed to kill then there’s nothing left to discuss.

You seem to cherry pick certain things and ignore the balance of my posts...I said I disagreed that firearms were originally specifically designed to kill human beings. My point was only that the intent of the original designer may have been to feed his family, I had no idea. I didn't deny that firearms could be, or were, used to kill...what tangent??

Firearms can be used to kill. Rocks can be used to kill. I even would have to wonder...in all of human history, rocks may well have been used in more homicides. They should be regulated. Knives most certainly have, particularly if you lump "swords" in with knives, which seems reasonable. Let's regulate all knives, too!
I doubt table saws have been used much, as they are unwieldy...but they have a blade, so let's lump em in with knives and regulate them too!

Where does it stop? Where has my freedom gone? I don't kill people often, why am I being punished? You realize, human nature...outlaw guns, and once they are finally rare on the streets- which will take a LONG time- knife killings will be on the rise, as they are in the UK. So soon knives are the bad guy of the day, and then they do get regulated, until clubs become the weapon of choice, and so we all have to eat on the floor, like the japanese, because table legs can be easily converted...

It's ridiculous. You're treating a symptom instead of a disease. WHY do people kill each other? It's not because weapons exist, murder predates tools. Plus, you're interfering with my personal freedom- which is fine with you, you don't like guns! It's fucking ridiculous.

Guns exist. The knowledge exists to build them. I can build a gun from scratch in my hotrod shop. Easily. The advent of 3d printers makes that even easier! You guys had better find another way to slow murders down, because history has proven time and time again that PROHIBITION FAILS. Look at booze, look at marijuana, look at coke, look at meth, take a gander at child porn. All ILLEGAL...and for a long time now. Still here.


Quote:I have had this discussion repeatedly with others on the forum whom I respect and admire and while they and I don’t see eye to eye on the topic we have always been cordial and respectful. I would prefer to keep it that way between the two of us.

That's up to you. I stay reasonable and respectful until I am disrespected. Call me a cunt and an asshole repeatedly, and courtesy gets tossed. If we were face to face, I would resort to violence. It's what I do.

I was hoping to find a home here, but I'm having second thoughts. Liberals, in my experience, are the most intolerant people around. It's all fine until an alternate view is expressed...then it goes downhill pretty fast. I'm not sure if it's worth it. You're all so certain you are correct...and you are, for you. Just leave me the hell out of it and let me do what works for me. I can feel us inching ever closer to a serious conflict in the US, because everybody wants their own way...I guess it's a global thing, too. Who in the world decided you or anyone else can tell me what I can or can't do, unless I harm someone else, or infringe on their rights? All of us good ol' country boys so many liberals like to laugh at..we fight most of the wars, we are most of the police, we have most of the guns. If it comes to open rebellion and revolution...well, I'll just say, best of luck to you. I don't like the fact that we can't seem to tolerate each other unless we share the same views, anymore...and people are getting rabid. I'm honestly- no bullshit- getting to the point where I'm scared for my daughters.
I wrote a post here, that was not offensive. I really just described my upbringing. Girly wandered into my thread, was a complete jackass, from the word go. I tried to make light of it by joking around, trying to defuse it and just have a good time...he kept calling me names and acting like a child. I finally decided to fight fire with fire, and immediately two people who I liked- sky and you- jump MY shit about it. Not because I'm wrong in my actions- I simply responded to an irritation. No, because you disagree with me politically. You sided with this horses ass who thinks he's on an elementary school playground showing the girls his dick...because I have a different opinion than you.

I seem to experience this behavior every time I try to make friends among liberals. I'm welcome, provided I do things their way, while they run around like petulant children, with no consequences.

I have a pretty good life...I'm not sure why I'm here. I have better ways to spend my time. I guess I just wanted to see if the relationships in this country were salvageable. I'm thinking...probably not.

cheers

I had hope we could discuss the topic honorably without building straw men but apparently not.

In your response to me you come across as having a chip on your shoulder and daring people to knock it off.

As for your very last paragraph I have to agree based on how this conversation is going because I have been nothing but cordial and open, I haven’t generalized, I haven’t built straw men, I haven’t accused you of anything, I haven’t attacked your personal opinion rather made what I thought were rational observations, I haven’t lumped you with a made-up caricature of a group of people...and yet that is exactly what you are doing here to me.

The question is, is it me or is it you who is not willing to salvage a relationship?

With all due respect,
FC

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-08-2016, 12:48 PM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
(12-08-2016 09:48 AM)The Dark One Wrote:  First, what is NOT self evident to me is that these are tools designed specifically to kill human beings. I actually have no idea if the original firearm was developed more in response to pressure to kill people or to feed families. [...]

Firearms were invented by the 14th-century Chinese, and later developed by the Arabs specifically to kill their enemies. To suggest that firearms were invented to put food on the table is erroneous. Killing first; food hunting more recently (late-17th century?)

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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13-08-2016, 12:55 PM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
(13-08-2016 08:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I had hope we could discuss the topic honorably without building straw men but apparently not.

In your response to me you come across as having a chip on your shoulder and daring people to knock it off.

As for your very last paragraph I have to agree based on how this conversation is going because I have been nothing but cordial and open, I haven’t generalized, I haven’t built straw men, I haven’t accused you of anything, I haven’t attacked your personal opinion rather made what I thought were rational observations, I haven’t lumped you with a made-up caricature of a group of people...and yet that is exactly what you are doing here to me.

The question is, is it me or is it you who is not willing to salvage a relationship?

With all due respect...

I'm sorry, but these comments have exactly what to do with the topic of "gun control"? It may be better if you PM people about any perceived slight on your character, rather than filling up the thread with off-topic comments. Thanks.

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13-08-2016, 04:15 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2016 04:22 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Gun Control thoughts
(13-08-2016 12:55 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(13-08-2016 08:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I had hope we could discuss the topic honorably without building straw men but apparently not.

In your response to me you come across as having a chip on your shoulder and daring people to knock it off.

As for your very last paragraph I have to agree based on how this conversation is going because I have been nothing but cordial and open, I haven’t generalized, I haven’t built straw men, I haven’t accused you of anything, I haven’t attacked your personal opinion rather made what I thought were rational observations, I haven’t lumped you with a made-up caricature of a group of people...and yet that is exactly what you are doing here to me.

The question is, is it me or is it you who is not willing to salvage a relationship?

With all due respect...

I'm sorry, but these comments have exactly what to do with the topic of "gun control"? It may be better if you PM people about any perceived slight on your character, rather than filling up the thread with off-topic comments. Thanks.

You mean like yours?

Look SYZ if I wanted to have a private conversation I wouldn't be on a fucking public forum capiche? Furthermore if you have a point to make regarding the topic great, but don't try and tell me how to interact with anyone here. It's not your place. I have to say I'm really surprised by your post.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-08-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
I just checked my PM box and didn't see anything from you SYZ, did I misunderstand you or were you just being hypocritical?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-08-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
(13-08-2016 12:48 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(12-08-2016 09:48 AM)The Dark One Wrote:  First, what is NOT self evident to me is that these are tools designed specifically to kill human beings. I actually have no idea if the original firearm was developed more in response to pressure to kill people or to feed families. [...]

Firearms were invented by the 14th-century Chinese, and later developed by the Arabs specifically to kill their enemies. To suggest that firearms were invented to put food on the table is erroneous. Killing first; food hunting more recently (late-17th century?)

I didn't say they were, I said I had no idea. Actually, I doubt anyone knows for sure how/why the very first handheld black powder projectile launcher was made...but I'll accept that in that time it may well have been to pierce armor.
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13-08-2016, 05:10 PM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
I think we're having a misfire...that wasn't directed at you, FC. I didn't- and don't- have any problem with you, we seem to be able to disagree like adults. Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I can't even figure out how you're taking that, exactly. As I said initially, I enjoy talking to you, regardless if we agree. My problem is NOT difference of opinion or belief...it's the methodology.
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13-08-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
Quote:I'm confused as to why you are disagreeing with something that FC did not argue. He did not argue that firearms were were originally specifically designed to kill human beings... he pointed out that they were originally specifically designed to kill.

Quote:Did you genuinely misread or were you being deliberately contentious?


Sorry, dlj...I'm thinking this thread is just cursed, everyone that comes here seems to get angry. I like fc and had no intention of angering him or being contentious...I'm not even quite certain what you mean, but it was unintentional if you think it was just deliberately argumentative.

As for the reply...I thought I did use the in-post reply...I had two generations of comments I was trying to highlight and separate while adding my third generation comment, and I guess I flubbed it up. Facepalm
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13-08-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Gun Control thoughts
(13-08-2016 05:10 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  I think we're having a misfire...that wasn't directed at you, FC. I didn't- and don't- have any problem with you, we seem to be able to disagree like adults. Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I can't even figure out how you're taking that, exactly. As I said initially, I enjoy talking to you, regardless if we agree. My problem is NOT difference of opinion or belief...it's the methodology.

Water under the bridge.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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