Gun Control
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08-07-2013, 08:31 AM
RE: Gun Control
(05-07-2013 02:11 PM)Merlin Wrote:  i don't think insurance or training would help with mass shootings. Mass shooters are psychopaths, and couldn't care less if they had to pay insurance on a gun, or be trained to use it.

It might not have a direct impact because, as you point out, some of them are psychopaths. This is another issue entirely. But the mass shootings are only one piece of the issue. Violence, murder, and suicide, can all be shown to be positively impacted by better regulation, restriction, training, and a less dramatic gun culture. This can be demonstrated via places like most of Europe and Australia.

The 2 articles I posted from Skeptic touch on this too. They were quite thorough in a few pages each.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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08-07-2013, 10:23 AM
RE: Gun Control
I find the emotional approach gun supporters on this thread maintain equivalent to the emotional sob stories of those who believe in ghosts.

Chas, anecdotes are unnecessary and irrelevant. I could say, "None of the Mississippians that I know are fat," and that statement carries no weight (pun intended, bitches) in light of the statistics.

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08-07-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Gun Control
(08-07-2013 08:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Naturally I am the one (the only one on the, as Julius might say, Antis side) in this thread who is considered unreasonable for not changing my mind.

If you're just going to scamper in to be a prick without reading my preceding posts that disqualify what you just said, then just fuck off. Drinking Beverage

(06-07-2013 02:03 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  You motherfuckers simply have more stamina than myself. TBD and me argued our positions over several pages. No amount of words is going to make him change his position. Just letting you know, you are wasting your energy typing away is all. And now my theme song and I'm out.




Wait...uh, what? I wasn't making a jab at you for not changing your mind. I just telling the other fellas that you aren't going to change your mind on the issue. I never implied you were unreasonable, you have your reasons. Whatever, back to scampering.

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08-07-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: Gun Control
Then I apologize for making a remark that could possibly be seen as being a bit of a twat.

(08-07-2013 10:34 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 08:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Naturally I am the one (the only one on the, as Julius might say, Antis side) in this thread who is considered unreasonable for not changing my mind.

If you're just going to scamper in to be a prick without reading my preceding posts that disqualify what you just said, then just fuck off. Drinking Beverage

Wait...uh, what? I wasn't making a jab at you for not changing your mind. I just telling the other fellas that you aren't going to change your mind on the issue. I never implied you were unreasonable, you have your reasons. Whatever, back to scampering.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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08-07-2013, 11:23 AM
RE: Gun Control
No worries, I get defensive from time to time as well...nearly did that today as a matter of fact. It's all good.

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08-07-2013, 10:58 PM
RE: Gun Control
Personally, I am not pragmatic about the right to bear arms. For me it is philosophical. For example, I do not own assault rifles for hunting or for self-defense. I own an assault rifle to do "battle"; at least hypothetically. Pragmatically speaking, I cannot think of many situations where I would actually engage in battle. Being a "rifleman" (or woman) in the sense of a Minute-man to me is a act of self-sufficiency which can be extended to a community.

Similar deal with hand guns. I really do not own a hand gun for self-defense. There are non-lethal alternatives that are more effective, even law enforcement is turning to them. However, it is a "rights" thing, a weapon can be an equalizer for a normally weak and defenseless person.

At the same time, I can sort of empathize with the idea that firearm ownership violates ones freedom FROM gun owners, an argument akin to the right to smoke versus the right to breathe clean air.

In the end, I find that the gun issue is related to shared resources and over-population. I am fortunate enough to be a privileged white male who has been able to secure ample property that is more aligned with the views I have expressed. Having a lot of guns in densely populated areas I agree is more problematic.

I am against using killing sprees as a catalyst for gun control. I would not want to forfeit my right to thwart one of these killers in the act, nor would I want to forfeit total control to an elite class like politicians who hire armed body guards while pushing for gun control.

I value freedom over safety, but that is just me. I get that it is a hard issue and that guns are scary.

I guess my views expressed here sort of describe me politically. I have libertarian leanings with regards to the role of government. I relate to the extreme aspects of both the defined liberal and conservative spectrum. For example, I would vote for the Green Party before I would vote Republican and I would vote Libertarian or Constitutionalism before voting Democrat.
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09-07-2013, 06:28 AM
RE: Gun Control
(08-07-2013 08:27 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  These issues are all part of the 2 articles I posted from Skeptic. They are on the preceding page or perhaps the one before it...

All in all, I agree with most what you say. I just think there is room for improvement on top of training (that, as you point out, means more than just firing the gun a lot).

Yes, there is a lot of room for training than just learning how to operate a gun. In fact, the training one should receive before one is taught how to operate a gun is more important than having the gun. I have taught 3 people how to operate a pistol, and in each case I had them read that literature I referenced before I would even consider showing them how to shoot. (BTW...all 3 rapidly became better shots than myself and did it very quickly) As a result, these are some pretty-damned responsible gun owners who can get avoid most bad situations without a gun and get themselves out of potentially bad situations without even considering using a gun. Thus, while all are eligible to carry at all times, they don't - for they don't see the need for it.

However...there are those sad times when a gun really is the answer.
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09-07-2013, 07:47 AM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 06:28 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 08:27 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  These issues are all part of the 2 articles I posted from Skeptic. They are on the preceding page or perhaps the one before it...

All in all, I agree with most what you say. I just think there is room for improvement on top of training (that, as you point out, means more than just firing the gun a lot).

Yes, there is a lot of room for training than just learning how to operate a gun. In fact, the training one should receive before one is taught how to operate a gun is more important than having the gun. I have taught 3 people how to operate a pistol, and in each case I had them read that literature I referenced before I would even consider showing them how to shoot. (BTW...all 3 rapidly became better shots than myself and did it very quickly) As a result, these are some pretty-damned responsible gun owners who can get avoid most bad situations without a gun and get themselves out of potentially bad situations without even considering using a gun. Thus, while all are eligible to carry at all times, they don't - for they don't see the need for it.

However...there are those sad times when a gun really is the answer.

And I think what you will find is that most of the people on the gun critic side of the debate want, is this kind of story. I think some additional bits can help (like the insurance and redoing the training, etc) as well, but being able to de-escalate an argument and being trained in situations that include recognizing when not to even remove the gun from the holster is essential.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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09-07-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: Gun Control
It's also worth noting that we are 3 days shy of this post
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid322990
being a month old without an actual reply, let alone the subsequent posts (including the ones about assuming that some mysterious admin was taking sides). Drinking Beverage

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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09-07-2013, 10:15 AM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 07:47 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 06:28 AM)Julius Wrote:  Yes, there is a lot of room for training than just learning how to operate a gun. In fact, the training one should receive before one is taught how to operate a gun is more important than having the gun. I have taught 3 people how to operate a pistol, and in each case I had them read that literature I referenced before I would even consider showing them how to shoot. (BTW...all 3 rapidly became better shots than myself and did it very quickly) As a result, these are some pretty-damned responsible gun owners who can get avoid most bad situations without a gun and get themselves out of potentially bad situations without even considering using a gun. Thus, while all are eligible to carry at all times, they don't - for they don't see the need for it.

However...there are those sad times when a gun really is the answer.

And I think what you will find is that most of the people on the gun critic side of the debate want, is this kind of story. I think some additional bits can help (like the insurance and redoing the training, etc) as well, but being able to de-escalate an argument and being trained in situations that include recognizing when not to even remove the gun from the holster is essential.


Actually, I have little hope that "Re-Doing" the training can help much for people with carry permits because the odds that someone with a carry permit is going to commit a gun crime are pretty remote. What this society really needs is training on how to avoid/prevent interpersonal conflict and violence - and I figure that this could be taught in High School. In addition to reducing the amount of assaults that occur in our society, this type of training could also help prevent acrimonious disputes in the home and workplace that so sap a nation of it's productive energies.

For example, a 1-semester High School course could cover such topics as:

1. Where, when and how most assaults occur
2. The profile of a criminal mindset
3. Why Courtesy and Good Manners are critically important
4. Why/How emotions and ego escalate conflict
5. Etc...

Did the "Why Courtesy and Good Manners are critically important" seem out of place? Actually, it's the most important of all - especially in dangerous neighborhoods. For example, a lot of people have been killed in Texas' Mexican-American Communities because they lacked "Respect". Also, a little courtesy and manners wouldn't hurt the less-dangerous neighborhood either - it could reduce a lot of strife.

However, what I propose would require the societal change of an entrenched mindset: the mindset that tells someone he/she is right and has no duty to back down - a society of eqos dominated by hubris. But...if we could do it, then Handguns and Gun Laws would be the least of our concerns.

Along the way, I have picked up some nuggets of hilarious - but true - wisdom from reading the site I referenced and they go like this (greatly paraphrased):

1. The #1 pre-attack indicator is that you are being an asshole.
2. Most assaults begin with directions with how to avoid them (for example, "Get the hell out of here or I am going to kick your ass!" is an instruction set on how to avoid violence, and so is "Give me your money" when looking down the barrel of a gun)
3. The most common words probably uttered by those who die in shootings are, "You don't have the guts to pull that trigger" (and these are usually uttered in Spanish)
4. The phrases "Mother Fucker" and "Cock Sucker" have no valid role in conflict resolution.
5. No criminal is ever the Bad Guy in his mind.
6. Etc....

Anyways...until society changes such that people jettison their hubris-filled egos, I'll keep my guns. If society does change one day, then no one will have to ask for my guns, for I will have already melted them down.

Ya' know, if Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman would have acted out their mutual drama in a hubris-free society, then I figure people would be sad and wonder what these guys hadn't learned - and people would also shun the idea that either of these clowns were victims of each others actions.
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