Gun Control
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09-07-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 10:15 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 07:47 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And I think what you will find is that most of the people on the gun critic side of the debate want, is this kind of story. I think some additional bits can help (like the insurance and redoing the training, etc) as well, but being able to de-escalate an argument and being trained in situations that include recognizing when not to even remove the gun from the holster is essential.


Actually, I have little hope that "Re-Doing" the training can help much for people with carry permits because the odds that someone with a carry permit is going to commit a gun crime are pretty remote. What this society really needs is training on how to avoid/prevent interpersonal conflict and violence - and I figure that this could be taught in High School. In addition to reducing the amount of assaults that occur in our society, this type of training could also help prevent acrimonious disputes in the home and workplace that so sap a nation of it's productive energies.

For example, a 1-semester High School course could cover such topics as:

1. Where, when and how most assaults occur
2. The profile of a criminal mindset
3. Why Courtesy and Good Manners are critically important
4. Why/How emotions and ego escalate conflict
5. Etc...

Did the "Why Courtesy and Good Manners are critically important" seem out of place? Actually, it's the most important of all - especially in dangerous neighborhoods. For example, a lot of people have been killed in Texas' Mexican-American Communities because they lacked "Respect". Also, a little courtesy and manners wouldn't hurt the less-dangerous neighborhood either - it could reduce a lot of strife.

However, what I propose would require the societal change of an entrenched mindset: the mindset that tells someone he/she is right and has no duty to back down - a society of eqos dominated by hubris. But...if we could do it, then Handguns and Gun Laws would be the least of our concerns.

Along the way, I have picked up some nuggets of hilarious - but true - wisdom from reading the site I referenced and they go like this (greatly paraphrased):

1. The #1 pre-attack indicator is that you are being an asshole.
2. Most assaults begin with directions with how to avoid them (for example, "Get the hell out of here or I am going to kick your ass!" is an instruction set on how to avoid violence, and so is "Give me your money" when looking down the barrel of a gun)
3. The most common words probably uttered by those who die in shootings are, "You don't have the guts to pull that trigger" (and these are usually uttered in Spanish)
4. The phrases "Mother Fucker" and "Cock Sucker" have no valid role in conflict resolution.
5. No criminal is ever the Bad Guy in his mind.
6. Etc....

Anyways...until society changes such that people jettison their hubris-filled egos, I'll keep my guns. If society does change one day, then no one will have to ask for my guns, for I will have already melted them down.

Ya' know, if Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman would have acted out their mutual drama in a hubris-free society, then I figure people would be sad and wonder what these guys hadn't learned - and people would also shun the idea that either of these clowns were victims of each others actions.

I agree with most of this, except that it won't help for those with conceal and carry permits. Mainly because this is not the type of training and requalification of training I am talking about. I am talking about needing a license and training on a yearly basis for owning any type of gun. That, coupled with what you outline for conflict resolution and prevention, can help curtail some of the domestic violence and death.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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09-07-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 10:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I agree with most of this, except that it won't help for those with conceal and carry permits. Mainly because this is not the type of training and requalification of training I am talking about. I am talking about needing a license and training on a yearly basis for owning any type of gun. That, coupled with what you outline for conflict resolution and prevention, can help curtail some of the domestic violence and death.

One of the beautiful things about guns is that they are cheap. If you require needing a license and training on a yearly basis, then you are putting gun ownership out of reach of a lot of people - especially those who most need guns (i.e., Poor People).

Take away all gun death from this country, and the USA is still a murderous country compared to European Countries. Hey...guns may contribute to higher death rates, but they don't totally explain why it is otherwise so freakin' high!

Anyways, I going to say something cruel...but true. Most people who die by the gun in the country - the vast majority - are idiots. These people indulged in a culture of violence, and eventually reaped it's rewards. Seriously, if you don't have an occupation like cab driver, or convenience store cashier - and...you keep away from violent bars and violent people - and take just a few basic precautions, then your chances of getting caught in a shootout are virtually 'nil. I am such a person, nevertheless I once used a gun in self defense while visiting a friend's farm in the boondocks (actually, I figured the guy was going to rape my wife and rob us - and that's what he eventually did to some other poor people without a gun). Thank goodness no shots were fired.

Now...there is only a few times I carry guns nowadays: 1. I'm tending my Uncle's Ranch, and 2. When I go fishing overnight down on the coast. Both situations put me in remote locations with limited options to avoid or run.
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09-07-2013, 10:55 AM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 10:49 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 10:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I agree with most of this, except that it won't help for those with conceal and carry permits. Mainly because this is not the type of training and requalification of training I am talking about. I am talking about needing a license and training on a yearly basis for owning any type of gun. That, coupled with what you outline for conflict resolution and prevention, can help curtail some of the domestic violence and death.

One of the beautiful things about guns is that they are cheap. If you require needing a license and training on a yearly basis, then you are putting gun ownership out of reach of a lot of people - especially those who most need guns (i.e., Poor People).

Take away all gun death from this country, and the USA is still a murderous country compared to European Countries. Hey...guns may contribute to higher death rates, but they don't totally explain why it is otherwise so freakin' high!

Anyways, I going to say something cruel...but true. Most people who die by the gun in the country - the vast majority - are idiots. These people indulged in a culture of violence, and eventually reaped it's rewards. Seriously, if you don't have an occupation like cab driver, or convenience store cashier - and...you keep away from violent bars and violent people - and take just a few basic precautions, then your chances of getting caught in a shootout are virtually 'nil. I am such a person, nevertheless I once used a gun in self defense while visiting a friend's farm in the boondocks (actually, I figured the guy was going to rape my wife and rob us - and that's what he eventually did to some other poor people without a gun). Thank goodness no shots were fired.

I've tried to provide a simplistic outline for this before as to cost. If a gun is necessary for someone to have for their livelihood, then they would be given a tax break.

If you can't afford a gun or the insurance or training, then I see it as being comparable to that of a car. If you can't afford that, we don't start clambering to make it easier for more people to get them who are not qualified.

And in general, the guns and the gun culture seem to be major contributors to why we have a higher death rate, but also things like education and healthcare costs. I'm not saying these get ignored, but I am saying that the cost argument for guns is one I simply don't care about.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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09-07-2013, 11:27 AM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 10:55 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 10:49 AM)Julius Wrote:  One of the beautiful things about guns is that they are cheap. If you require needing a license and training on a yearly basis, then you are putting gun ownership out of reach of a lot of people - especially those who most need guns (i.e., Poor People).

Take away all gun death from this country, and the USA is still a murderous country compared to European Countries. Hey...guns may contribute to higher death rates, but they don't totally explain why it is otherwise so freakin' high!

Anyways, I going to say something cruel...but true. Most people who die by the gun in the country - the vast majority - are idiots. These people indulged in a culture of violence, and eventually reaped it's rewards. Seriously, if you don't have an occupation like cab driver, or convenience store cashier - and...you keep away from violent bars and violent people - and take just a few basic precautions, then your chances of getting caught in a shootout are virtually 'nil. I am such a person, nevertheless I once used a gun in self defense while visiting a friend's farm in the boondocks (actually, I figured the guy was going to rape my wife and rob us - and that's what he eventually did to some other poor people without a gun). Thank goodness no shots were fired.

I've tried to provide a simplistic outline for this before as to cost. If a gun is necessary for someone to have for their livelihood, then they would be given a tax break.

If you can't afford a gun or the insurance or training, then I see it as being comparable to that of a car. If you can't afford that, we don't start clambering to make it easier for more people to get them who are not qualified.

And in general, the guns and the gun culture seem to be major contributors to why we have a higher death rate, but also things like education and healthcare costs. I'm not saying these get ignored, but I am saying that the cost argument for guns is one I simply don't care about.

You know, you can keep out of the vast majority of bad situations with just a few skills and a jettisoning of a hubris-filled ego. However, there are some situations that go beyond anything you can say or do - that rare time when you meet a true Human Predator - or should I say a Predator in Human form. It is like a charging tiger: there is no reasoning with it, an appeal for mercy will not be herd, it is a force of nature.

I am not afraid of Street Gangs, or Biker Gangs, or Drug Lords or Mafiosos or Zombies or any of that other crap people are afraid are going to get them (these guys are too smart to indulge in random violence). No...I fear most the 17-25 year-old Predator with low intelligence who is just old enough to have become a full-blown violent sociopath, and just lucky enough to have not been already imprisoned for life or shot dead (but he'll get there eventually). This is the SOB most likely to "come out of nowhere" and do something stunningly violent and stupid. He's the one that kills and maims for kicks after he robs you. He's the one who no amount of therapy can help. He is the one that was probably born that way.

Lucky for you that you have probably never had to face down such a stupid, violent bastard. And...I tell you from experience that your chances of "surviving intact" an encounter with such a bastard are very slim without a gun.
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09-07-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 11:27 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 10:55 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I've tried to provide a simplistic outline for this before as to cost. If a gun is necessary for someone to have for their livelihood, then they would be given a tax break.

If you can't afford a gun or the insurance or training, then I see it as being comparable to that of a car. If you can't afford that, we don't start clambering to make it easier for more people to get them who are not qualified.

And in general, the guns and the gun culture seem to be major contributors to why we have a higher death rate, but also things like education and healthcare costs. I'm not saying these get ignored, but I am saying that the cost argument for guns is one I simply don't care about.

You know, you can keep out of the vast majority of bad situations with just a few skills and a jettisoning of a hubris-filled ego. However, there are some situations that go beyond anything you can say or do - that rare time when you meet a true Human Predator - or should I say a Predator in Human form. It is like a charging tiger: there is no reasoning with it, an appeal for mercy will not be herd, it is a force of nature.

I am not afraid of Street Gangs, or Biker Gangs, or Drug Lords or Mafiosos or Zombies or any of that other crap people are afraid are going to get them (these guys are too smart to indulge in random violence). No...I fear most the 17-25 year-old Predator with low intelligence who is just old enough to have become a full-blown violent sociopath, and just lucky enough to have not been already imprisoned for life or shot dead (but he'll get there eventually). This is the SOB most likely to "come out of nowhere" and do something stunningly violent and stupid. He's the one that kills and maims for kicks after he robs you. He's the one who no amount of therapy can help. He is the one that was probably born that way.

Lucky for you that you have probably never had to face down such a stupid, violent bastard. And...I tell you from experience that your chances of "surviving intact" an encounter with such a bastard are very slim without a gun.

Which is more likely to help you survive that encounter?

You have a gun but he takes you by surprise with a gun
or
you have a gun because you could get one and he doesn't because he couldn't
or
no one has a gun and you fight tooth and nail

I'm not sure if the answer is the first or second to be honest (because he could take your gun away if he gets you by surprise), but I am certain the first is not the best case scenario.

In any event, these people make up how much of the problem here in the US? They certainly shouldn't be the reason we try to resolve some of the other issues.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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09-07-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 11:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Which is more likely to help you survive that encounter?

You have a gun but he takes you by surprise with a gun
or
you have a gun because you could get one and he doesn't because he couldn't
or
no one has a gun and you fight tooth and nail

That's really a limited set of choices and in no way what I intend to let happen. When I carry a gun, I do so because I am giving the worst people in society the Opportunity and Positioning they need to make a successful attack on an unarmed person. In these places, there is nowhere to run, and no one is near to help you. However, I put myself in a position where I will not be surprised. Seriously, when I am "Out There", no one will "sneak up" one me - they won't get within a hundred yards of me before I see them. For example, at the ranch we have some little "yapper" dogs with keen noses - Incredibly-good early-warning systems. At the coast where I fish the view is as far as you can see.

First Rule: never put yourself in a position where you can be surprised and overwhelmed. Not even a gun can insure you escape such a situation in one piece.

Second Rule: Bring a gun if you must sacrifice Position and Opportunity.
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09-07-2013, 12:00 PM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 11:57 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 11:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Which is more likely to help you survive that encounter?

You have a gun but he takes you by surprise with a gun
or
you have a gun because you could get one and he doesn't because he couldn't
or
no one has a gun and you fight tooth and nail

That's really a limited set of choices and in no way what I intend to let happen. When I carry a gun, I do so because I am giving the worst people in society the Opportunity and Positioning they need to make a successful attack on an unarmed person. In these places, there is nowhere to run, and no one is near to help you. However, I put myself in a position where I will not be surprised. Seriously, when I am "Out There", no one will "sneak up" one me - they won't get within a hundred yards of me before I see them. For example, at the ranch we have some little "yapper" dogs with keen noses - Incredibly-good early-warning systems. At the coast where I fish the view is as far as you can see.

First Rule: never put yourself in a position where you can be surprised and overwhelmed. Not even a gun can insure you escape such a situation in one piece.

Second Rule: Bring a gun if you must sacrifice Position and Opportunity.

And places like Australia have found that reasonable restrictions on guns don't mean taking them away from those that need them in rural areas and that these restrictions can have a positive impact on murder rate, suicide rate, and frequency of mass shootings/mass murder.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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09-07-2013, 12:12 PM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 12:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 11:57 AM)Julius Wrote:  That's really a limited set of choices and in no way what I intend to let happen. When I carry a gun, I do so because I am giving the worst people in society the Opportunity and Positioning they need to make a successful attack on an unarmed person. In these places, there is nowhere to run, and no one is near to help you. However, I put myself in a position where I will not be surprised. Seriously, when I am "Out There", no one will "sneak up" one me - they won't get within a hundred yards of me before I see them. For example, at the ranch we have some little "yapper" dogs with keen noses - Incredibly-good early-warning systems. At the coast where I fish the view is as far as you can see.

First Rule: never put yourself in a position where you can be surprised and overwhelmed. Not even a gun can insure you escape such a situation in one piece.

Second Rule: Bring a gun if you must sacrifice Position and Opportunity.

And places like Australia have found that reasonable restrictions on guns don't mean taking them away from those that need them in rural areas and that these restrictions can have a positive impact on murder rate, suicide rate, and frequency of mass shootings/mass murder.


I agree. But...Australia is also a different place than the USA. Like I said, the USA would have a murder problem even if you got rid of all the guns, and the stats prove it. There is a glorification of violence in this society that is stunning - and it's that glorification of violence that is the root of so many problems.

Ever heard the phrase, "The pen is mightier than the sword"? In their hearts, most Americans believe that phrase is the utterance of a coward who is too afraid to master the sword. They won't outright say it, but their actions and attitudes betray them. Consequently, they are held under the spells of the people who do believe that phrase and who make damned sure that it is forever misunderstood. Thus, the glorification of violence. As a result, most all American Heroes indulge in violence at some point in their lives. And...violence is seen as the cure for most everything.

I think we see where this has taken us.
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09-07-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 12:12 PM)Julius Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 12:00 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And places like Australia have found that reasonable restrictions on guns don't mean taking them away from those that need them in rural areas and that these restrictions can have a positive impact on murder rate, suicide rate, and frequency of mass shootings/mass murder.


I agree. But...Australia is also a different place than the USA. Like I said, the USA would have a murder problem even if you got rid of all the guns, and the stats prove it. There is a glorification of violence in this society that is stunning - and it's that glorification of violence that is the root of so many problems.

Ever heard the phrase, "The pen is mightier than the sword"? In their hearts, most Americans believe that phrase is the utterance of a coward who is too afraid to master the sword. They won't outright say it, but their actions and attitudes betray them. Consequently, they are held under the spells of the people who do believe that phrase and who make damned sure that it is forever misunderstood. Thus, the glorification of violence. As a result, most all American Heroes indulge in violence at some point in their lives. And...violence is seen as the cure for most everything.

I think we see where this has taken us.

I'm not suggesting that improved gun laws will mean dissolution of murders in the US, but it has been shown to reduce the rate.

I'm also not sure how you draw the correlation between having a culture that glorifies violence and one that practices it because of that. I'm also not sure I would say we have a culture that glorifies violence.

For instance, if you look at countries where violent video games are allowed, there has been a correlation with decreased violence overall. It seems that having an outlet that is not reality, means people can indulge in their natural instincts without giving harm to other people.

This would also work the same for romance novels and mystery/murder theater, etc.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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09-07-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: Gun Control
(09-07-2013 12:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm also not sure how you draw the correlation between having a culture that glorifies violence and one that practices it because of that. I'm also not sure I would say we have a culture that glorifies violence.

For instance, if you look at countries where violent video games are allowed, there has been a correlation with decreased violence overall. It seems that having an outlet that is not reality, means people can indulge in their natural instincts without giving harm to other people.

This would also work the same for romance novels and mystery/murder theater, etc.

Hollywood and TV. It's where the young and impressionable learn how the world should work....or how they figure people should think it should work.
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