Gun Control
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12-06-2013, 12:27 PM
RE: Gun Control
(12-06-2013 12:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-06-2013 12:20 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Meh, no need to mediate anything. He is welcome to take the conversation any which way he pleases, as long as it is not expected for me to refrain from doing the same.

I was kind of hoping you'd refrain, too. Drinking Beverage

Oh, well.

Wasn't aware I had devolved back to insults with him. I address people in the manner and with the respect they afford me. No more, no less.

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12-06-2013, 12:31 PM
RE: Gun Control
(12-06-2013 12:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(12-06-2013 12:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  I was kind of hoping you'd refrain, too. Drinking Beverage

Oh, well.

Wasn't aware I had devolved back to insults with him. I address people in the manner and with the respect they afford me. No more, no less.

Tit-for-tat? Good game theory. Not necessarily good diplomacy. Big Grin

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-06-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Gun Control
(12-06-2013 12:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-06-2013 12:27 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Wasn't aware I had devolved back to insults with him. I address people in the manner and with the respect they afford me. No more, no less.

Tit-for-tat? Good game theory. Not necessarily good diplomacy. Big Grin

I don't have to be diplomatic all the time! :Big Grin:

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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12-06-2013, 01:01 PM
RE: Gun Control
(12-06-2013 12:21 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  I'm being far more restrained than any of a dozen of our members are toward any random theist. Calling I and I or PleaseJesus idiots wins me applause, but slipping even a side-long insinuation at TBD causes upset, so much that a moderator must intervene? Is it because he has lots of posts? Or because his name is purple? Or the number of rep points he has? Please clarify the rules here.

P, I'm not a mod. I'm not 'stepping in'.

Your original post was, I felt, I well thought out argument for looking at issues rationally and I hoped it would spark a good discussion.

Things started to go off the rails and I've been sniping at both of you to step back from the brink and make this discussion more productive than any of the others on this subject.

That's all. Let's all be a little restrained. Or not. Do whatever the fuck you want, but I would like to see a productive discussion for a change.

Don't be like that opinionated asshole on the several LOTR threads. Oh, wait ... Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-06-2013, 01:33 PM
RE: Gun Control
I have to agree with Phaedrus on this. My youngest brother was murdered with a gun. My father collected them. I have been around guns all my life. My brothers murder was the worst tragedy my family ever faced. The case is still unsolved. Mom and Dad both died, not knowing what happened to their son, or why. I may never know what happened to my beloved brother. (I live in a rural part of West Ky., by the way.) I did develop a distaste for them, for them for a while. Still kind of ambiguous about them.

But I have met many gun owners. Gun lovers. Who loved them for various reasons. My father loved them for many different reasons. . . He loved the history behind them, the quality and design of them. (Many of them are quite beautiful.) He was an avid hunter. I've never met anyone who said they wanted one so they could kill someone or rob a bank.

So, if you live in some big city and want to own a gun, what do we do about your rights? I don't know. But you are less likely to want a gun to hunt. You are less likely to have much experience with them, because you can't step out into your back yard and shoot cans. Hunting is something that will take place far away. What about the question of criminals obtaining guns illegally?

I think I just realized that haven't came to a conclusion on this!! Any thoughts?
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12-06-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Gun Control
(12-06-2013 01:33 PM)Ameron1963 Wrote:  I have to agree with Phaedrus on this. My youngest brother was murdered with a gun. My father collected them. I have been around guns all my life. My brothers murder was the worst tragedy my family ever faced. The case is still unsolved. Mom and Dad both died, not knowing what happened to their son, or why. I may never know what happened to my beloved brother. (I live in a rural part of West Ky., by the way.) I did develop a distaste for them, for them for a while. Still kind of ambiguous about them.

But I have met many gun owners. Gun lovers. Who loved them for various reasons. My father loved them for many different reasons. . . He loved the history behind them, the quality and design of them. (Many of them are quite beautiful.) He was an avid hunter. I've never met anyone who said they wanted one so they could kill someone or rob a bank.

So, if you live in some big city and want to own a gun, what do we do about your rights? I don't know. But you are less likely to want a gun to hunt. You are less likely to have much experience with them, because you can't step out into your back yard and shoot cans. Hunting is something that will take place far away. What about the question of criminals obtaining guns illegally?

I think I just realized that haven't came to a conclusion on this!! Any thoughts?

My aunt was murdered when I was 10 years old by her husband. Why? I have no idea and I doubt I ever will. It didn't cause me to become critical of guns, but I was 10. I look back at it now and all I can think about it is how unnecessary it was. How much damage it did to my whole family, and how even some simple intervention might have changed it in some way. (he killed her with a hunting rifle)

If someone wants to own a gun, they should be properly trained. They should be mentally stable. They should have to renew their training. The laws should be homogenized so that there isn't 50 different sets of them. And guns that are illegally attained, were once legal firearms.

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12-06-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: Gun Control
(11-06-2013 04:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  In Massachusetts, I can sell a firearm only to someone with a valid firearms license. There is no background check on the transaction, but I have to file a form recording the sale, including the license number of the purchaser.

Do they conduct background checks to obtain said license?

Here's the thing I don't understand, everyone makes a fuss about background checks...a background check doesn't show if the person buying a gun is competent to own one -- by competent I mean they understsnd how to fire the weapon, clean it, maintain it properly. It seems to me these areas are important too. It also seems to me that someone who knows they would fail a background check, wouldn't be buying a gun from anyplace requiring it.

I dunno -- I could be completely wrong about this.


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12-06-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: Gun Control
As far as I know, I can go to the local flea market and sell to who the hell ever. I may be wrong about this, but Dad did it all the time. Laws may have changed.
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12-06-2013, 10:04 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2013 10:07 PM by TheBlackKnight.)
RE: Gun Control
(11-06-2013 06:04 PM)JAH Wrote:  OK a couple of quick curiosity questions to those who know more about guns than I do.

I was taught in basic training that one of the advantages of the AR-15 was that the bullet tumbled on impact doing more damage to the flesh than a regular bullet would. I was a cook and a reservist so have little direct knowledge of what that weapon does, other than firing it a few times in training. Is the damage to flesh significantly higher than other bullets?

I was told when the first civilian AR-15's came out that it was quite easy to convert them to full auto. I also saw classified ads in magazines intended for gun enthusiasts that offered the parts necessary. Is that a myth or not.

I also see that even if that is a myth the methods to convert an AR-15 to full auto are known. I would not expect those who use the rifle for legal means to care, others might.


Well, yes, 5.56 does tumble, yaw and fragment inside a medium.

The problem with this is you need 2 things to get this magic happening: velocity and space inside the medium(target). As the round looses steam, it's fragmentation qualities deminish. [Image: ammo_project_ammoOraclePics_wund5.jpg] Those numbers are a from a 20" m16 barrel. Move down to the M4's 14.5 inch barrel, and you can only stay above the frag zone till about 150m out, after that velocity drops and you have a 62gr ".22" that might bounce off something like bone and do some cool stuff, or it might just leave a "ice pick wound".

You also need enough space for it to happen. Vietnam soldiers remarked about how they could shoot fucking charlie at 15y and it would go right thru and he would run off into the woods. Well, asian people arnt that big, taking a round to the stomach wouldnt exactly be a fun thing, but if it misses the important stuff, there's only maybe 5-7" of meat from front to back. Not enough "time" for the heavier back of the round to outrun the front and start to tumble.

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13-06-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: Gun Control
Another bit I meant to add to the bit about alcohol too, we have a defined age limit that is based off of brain development for the right to consume alcohol. Consumption below that age means that the consumer and the supplier are held legally responsible.

Guns? Hell, the gun industry makes guns specifically designed for kids.
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