Gun Laws In France
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14-11-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:47 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:38 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  It would be just as easy to say the other side is speculating. I find it hard to believe that if a few people had a gun on them that they would have laid there and accepted death as people were shot one by one execution style. If only 1% of that crowd was carrying, we're looking at a much smaller death toll. I'm sure of it.

Even if that is true (which is in doubt), terrorists attacks are still extremely rare. Unlike the mass shootings, daily accidents, gun crime and suicides by gun shot that you get as a regular occurrence in America.

So at best you would save a handful of people for a very rare occurrence at the expense of many more thousands of death per year by introducing guns.

Suicides will happen no matter what. Suicide rates in countries with no guns are practically the same as America. Just look at Japan.

Yes, terrorists attacks are rare in western countries, NOW. But they're on the rise. You think this is going to stop? No, this is only the beginning.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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14-11-2015, 05:54 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:50 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Yes, terrorists attacks are rare in western countries, NOW. But they're on the rise. You think this is going to stop? No, this is only the beginning.

No, and armed people won't help.

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14-11-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:46 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:40 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  And you would be wrong.

Most terrorists use bombs and that's what they would continue to use if guns didn't work.

Oh look, someone strapped with explosives and a dead man's switch in a crowd. Quick! Shoot him!

So yes, I repeat. France is not America. Europeans generally do not want to live in a country where gun ownership is rife. Again, this is religious thinking from the gun nuts. They can't imagine people having different values to them.

Well, Europeans are naturally weak. So you might be right. In America, only half of us are weak. We call them liberals.

And here you have just demonstrated that you have lost the argument because you are resorting to stereotypes.

As an aside, Glasgow can be quite a violent city where it's a sign of weakness to carry a gun or a knife.
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14-11-2015, 06:02 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:50 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Suicides will happen no matter what. Suicide rates in countries with no guns are practically the same as America. Just look at Japan.

A lot of people who are suicidal don't commit suicide because doing so is difficult, painful, messy and if you do it wrongly then you still survive and make your life a lot worse. If you have easy access to a gun then it is a lot easier to kill yourself. I wouldn't be here now if I had access to a gun twenty years ago.

(14-11-2015 05:50 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Yes, terrorists attacks are rare in western countries, NOW. But they're on the rise. You think this is going to stop? No, this is only the beginning.

Yeah right. There have always been waves of terrorism. This is just another one. Terrorism did not start in 2001 you know.
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14-11-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:31 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  The terrorist attack in Paris was not like the Marathon bombing. The terrorists were shooting people and holding others at gun point before starting to kill them.

Had there been armed civilians it might have saved lives. It might have save a lot of lives.

Speculation. Drinking Beverage

Oh, for fuck's sake. Facepalm

It doesn't particularly matter whether it is police, military, or civilians who shoot the fuckers - they die.
And the sooner, the better. It is civilians who are first on the scene.

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14-11-2015, 06:10 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:40 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 04:48 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Terrorists haven't really brought the war with ground troops into western countries until recently. If this is their new tactic, rushing into a crowded area, putting people on the ground and executing them one by one as they did in the concert hall, then this changes everything. What country will sit by and allow that to continue randomly? Only a stupid populace would allow their government to keep them unarmed under such conditions.

I imagine that if this happens a few more times, France won't be among the unarmed countries.

And you would be wrong.

Most terrorists use bombs and that's what they would continue to use if guns didn't work.

Oh look, someone strapped with explosives and a dead man's switch in a crowd. Quick! Shoot him!

So yes, I repeat. France is not America. Europeans generally do not want to live in a country where gun ownership is rife. Again, this is religious thinking from the gun nuts. They can't imagine people having different values to them.

That is utterly off track. It is not about values or what Americans think, it is a simple calculation that if there had been armed civilians the death toll might well have been lower.

It is entirely up to the French how they handle that calculation. If they believe the potential cost to society is much greater than the benefit, they won't change their laws.

And it is not a binary choice. It is not 'everyone gets a gun' vs. 'no one gets a gun'.

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14-11-2015, 06:11 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:42 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your source for this is ... ?

Criminals don't seem to have any problem getting weapons.

Your source for this is ... ?

The terrorists in Paris? Armed crime in places that have strict gun control?

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14-11-2015, 06:13 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  In many countries hand guns are hard to come by. The crims generally don't have them.

Your source for this is ... ?

Criminals don't seem to have any problem getting weapons.
Annecdotal I know, but at Auckland anniversary festival the police were putting on a public display. I had a decent conversation with a police officer that goes on raids. I asked him if he comes across hand guns much. He said no, he said sometimes they might find a sawn off shot gun but hand guns were rare.
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14-11-2015, 06:13 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:47 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:38 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  It would be just as easy to say the other side is speculating. I find it hard to believe that if a few people had a gun on them that they would have laid there and accepted death as people were shot one by one execution style. If only 1% of that crowd was carrying, we're looking at a much smaller death toll. I'm sure of it.

Even if that is true (which is in doubt), terrorists attacks are still extremely rare. Unlike the mass shootings, daily accidents, gun crime and suicides by gun shot that you get as a regular occurrence in America.

So at best you would save a handful of people for a very rare occurrence at the expense of many more thousands of death per year by introducing guns.

That might well be true, but even those risks can be mitigated.

It is not an all or nothing choice.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-11-2015, 06:15 PM
RE: Gun Laws In France
(14-11-2015 05:54 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:50 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Yes, terrorists attacks are rare in western countries, NOW. But they're on the rise. You think this is going to stop? No, this is only the beginning.

No, and armed people won't help.

And I think you will be proved wrong.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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