Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
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14-07-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 10:42 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 10:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  Better data gathering is required. However, there are clearly scenarios where having a gun is beneficial and others where it might be detrimental.
Statistics only tell one so much. Each person and situation is unique and must be judged on its own merits.
For someone trained and prepared, a firearm is likely beneficial.
For someone who is not familiar with firearms, it is probably a bad idea to have one.

I would agree with with your assessment, but would add the following criterias.

For someone trained and prepared, a firearm is likely beneficial.
For someone who is not familiar with firearms or unprepared to use them, it is probably a bad idea to have one.
For someone involved in criminal activities, DUG (defensive use of a gun) is probably a bad idea.
For someone living in a high density area, it's probably a bad idea to have one.
For someone living in a rural area, it's likely beneficial.
For personnal defense, it's likely beneficial.
For home defense, it's likely pointless (neither good or bad).

I disagree with your last one. In fact, I think it is more likely to be beneficial than for personal defense outside the home.

I'm interested in understanding your reasoning.

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14-07-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 09:54 AM)KUSA Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 09:35 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Once someone is trying to leave they are no longer a threat and use of force is no longer justified.

Not trying to open up a can of worms but what do you think that person will do once they escape? Leave the life of crime? Think of Spider-Man. He didn't do anything and then his uncle was killed by the thug he let get away.


(14-07-2016 10:22 AM)TechnoMonkey Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 09:35 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  ... if you shoot him in the back while he is trying to get away (with or without your stuff)

(my bolding)

So as long as one keeps their back to you, they have the freedom to clean you out?

Defending life, limb and property.

Got my stuff, going down.

If they aren't a threat to life or limb use of deadly force is not justified. That's my take on it.

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14-07-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 11:24 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 09:54 AM)KUSA Wrote:  Not trying to open up a can of worms but what do you think that person will do once they escape? Leave the life of crime? Think of Spider-Man. He didn't do anything and then his uncle was killed by the thug he let get away.


(14-07-2016 10:22 AM)TechnoMonkey Wrote:  (my bolding)

So as long as one keeps their back to you, they have the freedom to clean you out?

Defending life, limb and property.

Got my stuff, going down.

If they aren't a threat to life or limb use of deadly force is not justified. That's my take on it.

That's how it's taught in CCW classes in Michigan....

You don't "shoot to kill" -- you shoot for center mass to stop the bad behavior. Once the aggressor quits - you're required to stop shooting.....

.......................................

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14-07-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
It's actualy what one of the study cited on the wikipedia article on the defensive gun use. While 30% of household have access to a gun, in only 3% of the cases someone managed to use his gun to defend himself or his property from home invasions and in some of those cases, the person still loss property. Most of the time, a person who invade your home will do so when he/she thinks your abscent, sleeping or eating diner with your family.

In all three cases, even if there is a weapon in your house, you probably don't have it on hand and aren't really ready to use it in emergency. If you are sleeping for exemple, chances are the invaders will flee the moment they start hearing you wake up. You might be able to brandish your weapon to speed up their retreat, but it was fundamentally pointless.

If you were eating diner, your first priority would probably to hide your kids before rushing for your gun, that's if you even noticed someone else was in your house. A very successful thief used that trick because people aren't attentive in the evenning and are in predictable places.

Finally, if you are not home, well you can't really defend it with your gun and it will probably be stolen if it's found since these are easy to sell on the black market.

Than again, if you live in a house, it's probably much more useful than if you live in an appartement especially a small one. Someone invading an appartment won't give you much time to arm and prepare yourself. That's why I thought it was pointless. There is very little chance you will get to use it and even if you do, it might be to late. Of course, you might be lucky in your missfortune and get in a situation where a gun was useful and might even have saved your life, but these events are by any sandard so rare it hardly matter. That's why I would say they are neither good or bad.

Come to think of it, considering the value of guns, having lots them might make your house more attractive to thieves who would like to rob you...Consider

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14-07-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 11:27 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Come to think of it, considering the value of guns, having lots them might make your house more attractive to thieves who would like to rob you...Consider


I live in SW Michigan -- where guns are everywhere -- and the sound of gunfire is commonplace.... You cannot go outside for more than an hour without hearing gunfire..... Almost every house in the area has it's own gun range......

The crime rate in this area is almost nil....

1 murder last year........ The one before that was almost 20 years ago -- and that from some gang members from the next county over......

Break ins are almost unheard of...

.......................................

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14-07-2016, 11:42 AM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 10:20 AM)epronovost Wrote:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

For every study that claims that guns are better than other means of self defense another claim the opposite and another claim that its true for a specific group of person (men of average income in urban area) while women, poor people and people in rural area don't gain any advantages from it. While guns are certainly not diabolical contraptions, they don't seem to be that helpful either. Data interpretation on the subject seems to vary enormoulsy depending on the study.

In 2012 by executive order of President Obama the CDC was funded with $10 million to study gun violence. The results of that study represent the most comprehensive and recent data available on the subject under discussion. Among other findings that gun control proponents didn't expect the report says that armed citizens are less likely to be injured by an attacker.

http://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1#iii

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14-07-2016, 11:48 AM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 11:42 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 10:20 AM)epronovost Wrote:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

For every study that claims that guns are better than other means of self defense another claim the opposite and another claim that its true for a specific group of person (men of average income in urban area) while women, poor people and people in rural area don't gain any advantages from it. While guns are certainly not diabolical contraptions, they don't seem to be that helpful either. Data interpretation on the subject seems to vary enormoulsy depending on the study.

In 2012 by executive order of President Obama the CDC was funded with $10 million to study gun violence. The results of that study represent the most comprehensive and recent data available on the subject under discussion. Among other findings that gun control proponents didn't expect the report says that armed citizens are less likely to be injured by an attacker.

http://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1#iii

Actualy there has been a study in 2015 about it and it says the exact opposite. That's why I think that, since all those studies are so contradictory, we can hardly draw certainty from any of them. Here are the details for the 2015 ones.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25910555

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14-07-2016, 12:40 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 11:48 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 11:42 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  In 2012 by executive order of President Obama the CDC was funded with $10 million to study gun violence. The results of that study represent the most comprehensive and recent data available on the subject under discussion. Among other findings that gun control proponents didn't expect the report says that armed citizens are less likely to be injured by an attacker.

http://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1#iii

Actualy there has been a study in 2015 about it and it says the exact opposite. That's why I think that, since all those studies are so contradictory, we can hardly draw certainty from any of them. Here are the details for the 2015 ones.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25910555

Here's the data on injury rate by defensive strategy contained in table 3b of the report you linked.

[Image: injury%20rate%20by%20defensive%20strateg...ioiydu.jpg]

According to their data the victims that were less likely to be injured were the victims with guns.

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14-07-2016, 12:57 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 12:40 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 11:48 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Actualy there has been a study in 2015 about it and it says the exact opposite. That's why I think that, since all those studies are so contradictory, we can hardly draw certainty from any of them. Here are the details for the 2015 ones.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25910555

Here's the data on injury rate by defensive strategy contained in table 3b of the report you linked.

[Image: injury%20rate%20by%20defensive%20strateg...ioiydu.jpg]

According to their data the victims that were less likely to be injured were the victims with guns.

You are looking at the wrong table. You should look at table 3b not 3a (I think you might have posted the wrong table number btw). In table 3b it details the effect of the defensive measure. For exemple if you were injured before, during or after the use of the defense measure. The table does show that using a gun result in less injuries, but its not linked to the usage of the gun since to calculate the efficency of a method you need to see how many are injured during or after the defensive measure (using a gun to protect your self or your property in this case) is applied. In that case 4.1% are injured during or after the measure is taken while running away for exemple result in 2.4% chance of being injured during or after the attempt. In fact, looking at the same table, there is absolutly no difference between staying still or using a gun to defend yourself. Basically we are still muddied water. Here is another link to the same study i thought had a more conveniant layout.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...3515001188

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14-07-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
We still have more guns than humans in America, and for all the justifications for needing them, and certain types, I still have never gotten a good answer as to how many weapons in civilian hands would be enough? 500 million guns? 1 billion guns, fuck it, how about 10 billion guns.

The gun worshipers don't want police to have to face an ambush, and I would agree. The Vegas shooters were not angry blacks and they murdered two armed cops and a civilians? And the open carry selfish fucks in Dallas slowed the police down which took them longer to figure out there was only one suspect.

I really am sick of being nice about this. This has never been about rights, nor an all out ban on every single firearm. There is no political party oath to own one and liberals own them too.

The no rules assholes on the right think more guns will help, are full of fucking shit and complain about too many regulations.

But when shit happens it goes like this.

Va Tech, "Don't blame the guns, it's the mentally ill"

Sane people, "We agree. so lets vet buyers better"

Gun nuts "NO!"

Fort Hood, "It's The Terrorists"

Sane people, "Ok, lets vet buyers better"

Gun nuts, "NO".

Gun nuts, "We need our weapons to protect ourselves from an over zealous government"

Sane people, " What about cops?"

Gun nuts, "We support police"

Sane people, "So do we"

Gun nuts, "Tyranny!"


This is the same bullshit moving the goal posts Christians do trying to square the NT with the OT.


We have a gun death problem, and the only reason we do has NOTHING to do with liberals wanting to become a fascist state, and everything to do with one industry scaring the shit out of gun worshipers to protect profits.

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