Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
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14-07-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 02:03 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 01:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  I really am sick of being nice about this.

Blink

No shit...

He really said that....

Astounding, eh??


Big Grin

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-07-2016, 05:27 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
There once was a poet named Brian.
Who pissed people off without tryin'
At least once a day,
He blamed the NRA
For guns bought by people who're buyin'...


Big Grin

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-07-2016, 05:31 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 05:27 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  There once was a poet named Brian.
Who pissed people off without tryin'
At least once a day,
He blamed the NRA
For guns bought by people who're buyin'...


Big Grin

I think all that backward masking in ABBA songs has finally gotten to him.

All Beings Buy Ammunition

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat

Are my Chakras on straight?
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14-07-2016, 07:16 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 01:36 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Tobacco pulled the same shit with "smoker's rights"

Uhhhhh..... no they didn't. They never argued "smoker's rights"

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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14-07-2016, 07:32 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 07:16 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 01:36 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Tobacco pulled the same shit with "smoker's rights"

Uhhhhh..... no they didn't. They never argued "smoker's rights"

Yes they did... http://www.no-smoke.org/getthefacts.php?id=95




(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-07-2016, 10:19 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)epronovost Wrote:  there is one weakness in the study about the self defense usage of guns you presented.
Which one? I made references to the CDC study in 2013, the JCLC study of 1995, the JQC study of 2000, a study by the CDC in 1994, and provided a link which lists other studies I didn't mention because I figured 4 was good enough, if not overkill. I think there was like...6 or seven total when including the link.

(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)epronovost Wrote:  It doesn't mention if the usage of a firearm was necessary or even reasonnable in those circomstances.
1.) Who determines necessity or if it's reasonable? That's a rather nebulous terminology, and frankly wildly subjective. The person with the gun felt it was necessary, and I'd argue that given the VAST majority of those reported involved no discharge of a firearm I'd say that seems reasonable, but opinions would vary naturally.
2.) That said the JCLC study does distinguish between cases where the person answering the survey can clearly list a crime being committed and one that can't. While it was an anonymous survey the methodology of their questions was actually quite good. (as far as these go anyway lol)
3.) One of the points from that survey is also a group of responded that answered that they would "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." The number of people in that single category alone is higher than accidental shootings. Just that one alone.

(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)epronovost Wrote:  If a spot a group of teen/young adult smoking and talking on my loan and decide to go out with my shotgun and tell them to fuck off because they are tresspassing on my property, I would be counted as using my gun in self defense.
Well normally I really really don't like to get dragged into "what if" style debates but lets just say that's true for the sake of argument. How much of a +/- do you think that has on the results? That kind of reporting would have to happen in about 90% of the cases in that study for Brian's claim that "you are more likely to accidentally harm someone with a gun in the house", and even then it would not be "more" just "equal". I don't see any evidence to believe it's statistically relevant let alone makes up 90% of reporting.
Like I said above those people reporting immediate death alone are higher than accidental shootings.

(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Yet, I could just have left my house with a cellphone and threaten to call the cops and obtain the same results. Or, maybe if I asked them politely they would have moved away because they just wanted to chat not cause trouble.
In that single example sure. I don't see the relevance to the findings of multiple studies or that that is even self reports as such or that its statistically relevant if it is.
This is why I don't like "what ifs" much because ...what if they didn't want to leave and were armed? Suddenly your cell phone and polite requests become a lot less effectual. This is why I talk about how firearms are the metric by which we have to measure the ability of a person to reasonably and effectively defend ones self.


(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)epronovost Wrote:  For an argument in favor of gun as self defense tool, you would need to demonstrate that a firearm was absolutly necessary to defend yourself.
Umm.....No. I don't even know why you would think that, no offense intended. An argument in favor of guns as tools for self defense would only have to demonstrate that they are viable as a tool for self defense.
One in no way needs to show that a gun is an absolute necessity to defend ones self, just that it's a viable option.

Also the point I was making was to show that the claim Brian made was in fact false, which I did.


(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Maybe a baseball bat or a hockey stick would have done the trick just as well. Who knows.
Who knows? Not me, that's why I recommend a firearm for self defense because I have no way of knowing what an assailant might bring into my home. Again it's about a metric of effective self defense.
That's coming from someone who does not own a gun and is a 23+ year veteran of this.

(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)epronovost Wrote:  There also another problem, it doesn't mention the legitimacy of the use of a gun for self defense in various circomstances.
That is not the purview nor the purpose of any of the studies and trying to ask those kind of question would betray a bias by the researchers and be ineffective for a self reporting survey.

(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Should you be allowed to shoot a thief on sight even if he presented no direct threat to you or your family and was unarmed (like most thieves are). What do you think about this issue?
If he is in my home I'm not likely to be able to tell what his intentions are on sight. The only way to know a person who has unlawfully entered my home poses no direct threat to me or my family is if the subject is subdued. Now just to be clear, subduing a person does not mean shooting him. However if he refuses to leave when instructed or acts in a way that I deem threatening then yes I think it's justifiable to discharge a firearm but I think that it should be a last resort if reasonable. Whether it actually was justified is a thing that can only be determined after the fact and based on the laws of where you live.
There is no simple binary answer to situations like this.

Here is the thing with stuff like that a survey done in 1997 of 18,000 prison inmates found that about a third of those serving time for violent offenses carried a firearm while committing the crime.
Can you tell the difference instantly, cause I can't and I've been in situations where I've had to make that call. You're trying to offer binary choices to a situation that has so many variables, unexpected eventualities, and other issues.

Haha I think you can tell now why I don't like what ifs Tongue

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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14-07-2016, 10:22 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
If there was a mass stabbing, would it lead to a knife debate? Just curious.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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14-07-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 03:57 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 03:36 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Why wait so long? Gun safety, like foreign languages, is best learned young.

Good point. We should teach our kids about guns since the first grade, if not even before .
Imagine that proud moment whit your daughter "daddy daddy look how fast I can disassemble my AR-15, promise you'll buy me that hallo kitty 30 rounds mag for my birthday"


[Image: kUZsKVS.jpg]

Well even my crazy ass would start with something more basic. I was taught gun safety on a BB gun and had to demonstrate that I was responsible enough for a real one before my stepfather got me my Winchester 94 when I was around 10. In any case, it wouldn't have been rational to wait until I was much older because there were bears and shit where we lived. Home invasion takes on a different meaning when you are returning to a cabin in the middle of nowhere, Alaska that has been unoccupied for a few months Tongue

'Murican Canadian
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14-07-2016, 10:25 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 09:35 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Yes as with most studies on anything there are issues with the studies on defensive use of firearms. One of the the things that I don't like about the way the data was collected in some of the studies that resulted in high end estimates, i.e. in the millions per year, is they included responses from people that weren't legally allowed to have guns at the time. An example of that would be a convicted felon drug dealer that used a gun to defend himself during a home invasion by people there to steal his money/drugs.
Sorry I'll be honest while I tried to read the entirety of all those reports (kill me now) I'll admit to not reading every page. Can you provide me any examples listed in the report if this, or are you just assuming this happened because it was an anonymous survey?

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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14-07-2016, 10:47 PM
RE: Gun death becoming like diarrhea SERIOUS....
(14-07-2016 01:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  We still have more guns than humans in America, and for all the justifications for needing them, and certain types, I still have never gotten a good answer as to how many weapons in civilian hands would be enough? 500 million guns? 1 billion guns, fuck it, how about 10 billion guns.
This particular bit of hysteria has already been debunked, the number of guns continues to rise and gun violence continues to drop. While correlation is not causation, it's enough to put to bed the idea that gun crime is effected by the number of firearms added to circulation.

Oh and also as a side note fuck you for having the nerve to bitch about not getting answers you hypocritical asshole.

(14-07-2016 01:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  The gun worshipers
Shut up Brian, just because people don't agree with your hysterical fanaticism doesn't mean they worship guns. This strawman is not even aggravating anymore it's just boring.

(14-07-2016 01:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  The Vegas shooters were not angry blacks and they murdered two armed cops and a civilians?
What does shooters ethnicity have to do with anything? Do you even have a point here? A rational point.

(14-07-2016 01:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  And the open carry selfish fucks in Dallas slowed the police down which took them longer to figure out there was only one suspect.
OMG this one example of private gun carry ended poorly so there for we can ignore the hundreds of thousands of examples of successful self defense with firearms!
Once again you are arguing that because a thing does not work 100% of the time therefor it's a bad thing. This is fucking stupid.

(14-07-2016 01:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  I really am sick of being nice about this.
You have been nothing but a bag of angry cocks on this subject for ages now. You have been belligerent, rude, condescending, arrogant, ignorant, and juvenile. You have gone out of your way to avoid answering any criticisms of your ideas to the extent of abandoning multiple threads once your bullshit is questioned, just to start new threads.

You have been the opposite of nice you ass.



This has never been about rights, nor an all out ban on every single firearm. There is no political party oath to own one and liberals own them too.

(14-07-2016 01:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  The no rules assholes on the right....
..are not in this fucking thread Brian. How about instead of ranting and raving about your personal boogeymen you ...oh I don't know... ANSWER SOME OF THE FUCKING QUESTIONS/CRITIQUES FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE!

Show me one fuckin' person who has said on this forum we should have no rules governing firearms. Do you have ANYTHING to add to the debate that isn't a motherfuckin' strawman?



Here let me ask you a question since you keep harping on about numbers of guns: What is the exact number of firearm related deaths YOU personally find acceptable in a modern society like the United States of America? The exact number.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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