HBO: Questioning Darwin
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12-02-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
(12-02-2014 11:00 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I watched it last night on my iPad. It kept stopping so it took like double the time. Giving that much lip-service tho to the creation museum was troubling.
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Okay, this was sort of my point. Do you get what I was saying about it not really being something that can be viewed as a negative piece on Creationist as the article suggest? (not necessarily addressed to mom, but anyone)

On the one hand, one can argue that it is, because it exposes how insane it is. Such as, "If the bible said 2+2=5, then I'd accept it and find a way to make sense of it". That shows Creationism in a negative light. But it doesn't do so by attacking it. It just exposes it.

I think exposing it is important, which is the best part of the Nye/Ham debate, it exposed it, as does this video. But this video did not really question it. Even when they have scientist talk, they don’t really argue against it, just kind of discuss it. It kind of seems like it just gave a voice to Creationist. I feel like Creationist watching this video would just be in agreement with it, and be happy it was made to share their views.

For us, and hopefully for even sensibly minded religious folk, we see the insanity in it. It’s clear, on the surface, and needs little pointing out. But for those more malleable, perhaps less educated, they may watch this, see folks that share their basic beliefs and see an option in Creationism for holding their beliefs and having a world view “make sense” of the “confusing” things science shows.

I just worry that without the film making a firmer case against it, or much of one at all, there are susceptible viewers who could actually be swayed by the simple mindedness of the “solution” to difficult questions, raised by evolution, for their continued belief in their religion. On one hand this documentary exposes the idiocy of Creationism, but on the other hand without sufficient criticism of it it may expose it to a greater population who might adopt it.

...
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12-02-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
Watching now - fucking painful! Have to calm the rage building in me!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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12-02-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
(12-02-2014 12:03 PM)natachan Wrote:  "There are many ways to get the light here quickly, including gravitational time dilation."

Da fuck? I'm pretty sure special relativity doesn't work that way. In fact I'm fairly sure my physics teacher said it isn't.

I hate these shitty arguments where they use the science which they don't understand or agree with to argue an issue that they only even know is an issue for them because scientist did the work to reveal it to them.

To me, this argument is like answering the question of where did all the water come from for the flood, by saying, "Well molecular genetics shows how a molecule can replicate itself, so it could be that water molecules simply replicated themselves the same way science has proved DNA does".

As long as they are making science up, why not make that up as well? It’s just as stupid as using time dilation to explain the Creationist’s starlight problem.

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12-02-2014, 12:42 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
(12-02-2014 12:14 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 11:00 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I watched it last night on my iPad. It kept stopping so it took like double the time. Giving that much lip-service tho to the creation museum was troubling.
...

Okay, this was sort of my point. Do you get what I was saying about it not really being something that can be viewed as a negative piece on Creationist as the article suggest? (not necessarily addressed to mom, but anyone)

On the one hand, one can argue that it is, because it exposes how insane it is. Such as, "If the bible said 2+2=5, then I'd accept it and find a way to make sense of it". That shows Creationism in a negative light. But it doesn't do so by attacking it. It just exposes it.

I think exposing it is important, which is the best part of the Nye/Ham debate, it exposed it, as does this video. But this video did not really question it. Even when they have scientist talk, they don’t really argue against it, just kind of discuss it. It kind of seems like it just gave a voice to Creationist. I feel like Creationist watching this video would just be in agreement with it, and be happy it was made to share their views.

For us, and hopefully for even sensibly minded religious folk, we see the insanity in it. It’s clear, on the surface, and needs little pointing out. But for those more malleable, perhaps less educated, they may watch this, see folks that share their basic beliefs and see an option in Creationism for holding their beliefs and having a world view “make sense” of the “confusing” things science shows.

I just worry that without the film making a firmer case against it, or much of one at all, there are susceptible viewers who could actually be swayed by the simple mindedness of the “solution” to difficult questions, raised by evolution, for their continued belief in their religion. On one hand this documentary exposes the idiocy of Creationism, but on the other hand without sufficient criticism of it it may expose it to a greater population who might adopt it.

Yes, I agree with what you're saying and its worrisome that some Christians might watch this and walk away feeling a) vindicated for their belief or b) be converted into a young earth ideal.

I found the myopic focus on YEC to be troubling, in fact from that documentary, I could assume that every Christian living in the US believes as they do a narrow, literal genesis that means a 6000 year old earth and 4 thousand year old civilization. Which is completely wrong without a doubt.

Of course, when I was a kid my father once told me that men had one less rib than women because of Adam.

Maybe the question we should be asking is where are the Christians who do believe in Evolution by natural selection and who dismiss in a young earth...yet their belief in the bible (yes to me a fairy tale) isn't torn apart?


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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12-02-2014, 12:46 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
How long did it take them to find so many mindless nutjobs for the interviews. Holy friggin crap I have never been so scared!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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12-02-2014, 12:47 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
(12-02-2014 12:42 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 12:14 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Okay, this was sort of my point. Do you get what I was saying about it not really being something that can be viewed as a negative piece on Creationist as the article suggest? (not necessarily addressed to mom, but anyone)

On the one hand, one can argue that it is, because it exposes how insane it is. Such as, "If the bible said 2+2=5, then I'd accept it and find a way to make sense of it". That shows Creationism in a negative light. But it doesn't do so by attacking it. It just exposes it.

I think exposing it is important, which is the best part of the Nye/Ham debate, it exposed it, as does this video. But this video did not really question it. Even when they have scientist talk, they don’t really argue against it, just kind of discuss it. It kind of seems like it just gave a voice to Creationist. I feel like Creationist watching this video would just be in agreement with it, and be happy it was made to share their views.

For us, and hopefully for even sensibly minded religious folk, we see the insanity in it. It’s clear, on the surface, and needs little pointing out. But for those more malleable, perhaps less educated, they may watch this, see folks that share their basic beliefs and see an option in Creationism for holding their beliefs and having a world view “make sense” of the “confusing” things science shows.

I just worry that without the film making a firmer case against it, or much of one at all, there are susceptible viewers who could actually be swayed by the simple mindedness of the “solution” to difficult questions, raised by evolution, for their continued belief in their religion. On one hand this documentary exposes the idiocy of Creationism, but on the other hand without sufficient criticism of it it may expose it to a greater population who might adopt it.

Yes, I agree with what you're saying and its worrisome that some Christians might watch this and walk away feeling a) vindicated for their belief or b) be converted into a young earth ideal.

I found the myopic focus on YEC to be troubling, in fact from that documentary, I could assume that every Christian living in the US believes as they do a narrow, literal genesis that means a 6000 year old earth and 4 thousand year old civilization. Which is completely wrong without a doubt.

Of course, when I was a kid my father once told me that men had one less rib than women because of Adam.

Maybe the question we should be asking is where are the Christians who do believe in Evolution by natural selection and who dismiss in a young earth...yet their belief in the bible (yes to me a fairy tale) isn't torn apart?

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-02-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin



Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-02-2014, 05:23 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
If creationism was just a benign, fringe section of Christianity I could happily sit back and let them believe whatever they want... But it isn't benign, its malignant and spreading fast, trying to muscle its way into classrooms.

I notice there doesn't seem to be any push to get it into colleges or universities... Why? Because they know adults are not so easy to deceive, and can smell bullshit far better than kids can. Which speaks volumes about their views, they only make sense if its drilled into you as a child.

In my opinion, Creationism should be number one on priorities for atheist, Humanist and secular organizations. Its attempting to corrupt our kids minds. All they have to do is to create confusion for kids in order to push their agenda.

Of course, here in the UK we've got Blair's government to thank for the introduction of "Faith Schools". Unregulated classrooms where any bullshit can be taught.

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12-02-2014, 06:15 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
(12-02-2014 05:23 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  If creationism was just a benign, fringe section of Christianity I could happily sit back and let them believe whatever they want... But it isn't benign, its malignant and spreading fast, trying to muscle its way into classrooms.
...

I agree.

If they just kept it to their beliefs, and kept it out of the classroom, I would still be annoyed by it, but I wouldn't argue with them about it.

They don't realize that their own forcing of Creationism in science classrooms is dangerous for their own Christianity as a whole. Because by doing so, scientist who otherwise would have left the bible and Christianity alone, are now being forced to confront it, and actively show it to be false.

I think they are digging their own grave, so to speak. Unless they succeed in turning the United States (or wherever you live) into a theocracy, in which case we are fucked, because as Bill Nye said, without those who are trained to do science, we as a country will not be able to compete in the future.

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12-02-2014, 06:43 PM
RE: HBO: Questioning Darwin
I was amused by the bald pastor talking about how gawd can count the number of hairs on his head. Dude, a 3 year old could do that.

As Sam and RJ pointed out, it is the whole classroom push that is the crux of the issue. Another quote just came to mind, from Karen Armstrong in the Battle for God:

Quote:It is important that we understand the dread and anxiety that lie at the heart of the fundamentalist vision, because only then will we begin to comprehend its passionate rage, its frantic desire to fill the void with certainty, and its conviction of ever-encroaching evil. . . .
. . . Since the late nineteenth century, American fundamentalists had responded to the challenge of modernity by trying to make their faith wholly rational. They had emphasized the virtues of reason and plain sense; they had embraced a sober literalism that eschewed imagination and fantasy. . . . Theirs had been an ethic of separation; fundamentalists had created a counterculture that was supposed to be everything that the Godless mainstream was not: it was a faith that offered cast-iron certainty and hierarchy to challenge the doubts, open questions, and shifting roles of the modern world. . . .
. . . By trying to make their faith scientific and rational, the fundamentalists had pushed religion into an unnatural mode. . . .
. . . [and] by insisting that the truths of Christianity are factual and scientifically demonstrable, [they] have created a caricature of both religion and science.

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