Had I'd known...
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17-05-2017, 02:06 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
(17-05-2017 01:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Stupid thing is, if he could have got off his high horse for a second, he might have had some fun here. All these fundy types... they can't seem to just hang out with us and get to know us. They always gravitate to atheism and theism and have to insert themselves into some conversation and make it about their stupid God. Then when we argue they double down instead of backing off, culminating in bullshit like this stupid thread. If they'd just talk shit for a while they'd find out we're not so bad.

The irony is, here, that Alla recognized the same thing and actually beat you to the punch with this sentiment, a few posts back. Just wanted to add a second "Kudos" to Alla for that one.

But you're right-- they come here accusing us of being so rabid/fundy/aggressive, but the reality is we'd be happy to never talk about this subject, ever again. Ever. The only reason we have to get so good at these arguments, and stand our ground so adamantly, is because religious people push this crap at us unceasingly. They either 1) try to legislate their religious views onto us somehow, 2) try to use our tax dollars or our shared secular government's powers to spread their religious doctrines, or 3) lie and/or manipulate words in order to promote magical thinking and denigrate atheism/skepticism/science... all of which we are compelled to address, now, rather than knuckle under or remain silent as we were once forced to do, a couple of generations back.

And what do we get in return? Scorn and vitriol which we're not allowed to return in kind without being tagged with additional prejudicial stereotypes designed to gaslight us. Yeah, I wonder why we're angry!

[Image: old-atheists-vs-new-atheists-600x334.jpeg]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-05-2017, 02:06 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
(17-05-2017 01:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-05-2017 11:16 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  What I find interesting is that I specifically did not name any names and people are assuming it was about them. Edit: Except to point out at the end of CC's time here, Inquisition and Bucky were being nicer than I'd be, given how he kept ignoring everything they tried to say. Edit 2: Also I'm sorry, that first sentence comes off far more vitriolic sounding than there is intent for it to do, it's supposed to be more observational than it comes across. It comes off as me being an asshole.

Glad you recognise that. Also, fuck sakes, if I'm *not* one of the people you mean, then you were talking about the empty set. I shat all over him. Stupid thing is, if he could have got off his high horse for a second, he might have had some fun here. All these fundy types... they can't seem to just hang out with us and get to know us. They always gravitate to atheism and theism and have to insert themselves into some conversation and make it about their stupid God. Then when we argue they double down instead of backing off, culminating in bullshit like this stupid thread. If they'd just talk shit for a while they'd find out we're not so bad.

Ah, fuck this. I'm gonna go watch porn. Angry
If you were convinced that creator of all Universe care about what you do were you be able to consider other viewpoints? I wouldn't.

No religion without arrogance.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-05-2017, 03:56 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
(17-05-2017 11:16 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  What I find interesting is that I specifically did not name any names and people are assuming it was about them. Edit: Except to point out at the end of CC's time here, Inquisition and Bucky were being nicer than I'd be, given how he kept ignoring everything they tried to say. Edit 2: Also I'm sorry, that first sentence comes off far more vitriolic sounding than there is intent for it to do, it's supposed to be more observational than it comes across. It comes off as me being an asshole.

Yeah but you know I luv ya and I know it wasn't me as I came to this thread late in the game, trust me Shai I'm purely punking you Big Grin
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17-05-2017, 04:02 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
(17-05-2017 11:36 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  They come here, spout that "unquestionable" bullshit, and act surprised when we do challenge it immediately and vehemently... but that's when the 2nd part kicks in and they say we "just don't understand" (even when we're quoting from religious websites that 100% agree with our reading of the material) or are just saying what we're saying because we "hate God" or "that's just what atheists would say", and so on. Then they act shocked when we get belligerent, because after all they were entitled to speak to others in that way with no repercussion, or they get to feel martyred when we do speak to them as they spoke to us.

It's kind of amazing to watch.

Thanks RS! And for what it's worth, I agree with pretty much everything you've said. TTA is willing to call one another out on things usually, because there is a very large amount of intellectual honesty that goes on here.

On the coddling part, it's something I've come to appreciate since moving to Cheeseland; there are Creationists all over the place who feel they should be allowed to shout down any mention of evolution (and bring anti-evolution groups to campus), but bring in a secular speaker and the signs get vandalized. Show a video about leaving a cult, and it's from American Atheists's national convention, people will complain all atheists are angry and that they would "beat the atheism out of my kid". Also the only time I've had to remind people in a classroom that child abuse is fucking wrong. Also the only time I've ever had to utter the words, "David Silverman is not a dick, he's a firebrand." It's frightening to see, really, and that's as someone who believes in God. Likewise, our secretary goes on rants every so often about those atheist groups who won't just let "normal" people have up the 10 Commandments and such. I don't know if prior to moving here I didn't notice how much some groups demanded coddling, or if it's different here from the other states I've lived in previously.

Anyhow, I don't get the "unquestionable bullshit" as you put it well, approach, to interacting with a board of atheists that so many of our drive by friends seem to do. I expect to be questioned, if I begin to speak religiously in threads in atheism and theism. Though, on the cartoon, while cute, I think Murray-O'Hair might disagree, she seemed rather not content to say nothing. Wink

(17-05-2017 01:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-05-2017 11:16 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  What I find interesting is that I specifically did not name any names and people are assuming it was about them. Edit: Except to point out at the end of CC's time here, Inquisition and Bucky were being nicer than I'd be, given how he kept ignoring everything they tried to say. Edit 2: Also I'm sorry, that first sentence comes off far more vitriolic sounding than there is intent for it to do, it's supposed to be more observational than it comes across. It comes off as me being an asshole.

Glad you recognise that. Also, fuck sakes, if I'm *not* one of the people you mean, then you were talking about the empty set. I shat all over him. Stupid thing is, if he could have got off his high horse for a second, he might have had some fun here. All these fundy types... they can't seem to just hang out with us and get to know us. They always gravitate to atheism and theism and have to insert themselves into some conversation and make it about their stupid God. Then when we argue they double down instead of backing off, culminating in bullshit like this stupid thread. If they'd just talk shit for a while they'd find out we're not so bad.

Ah, fuck this. I'm gonna go watch porn. Angry

Actually I somehow glazed over almost all of your interactions with him, so perhaps the lizard part of me is going the whole "amygdala hijacking" route, where it's like "people are going after this jerk, but he's in my tribe, so I have to try and rationalize and defend this jerk to an extent, even though I loathe his behavior"; so maybe I was just going for the empty set. Again I do apologize for coming off as an asshole.

Your second part actually hits how I judge new people here who claim to be believers in God. Is their second post in atheism and theism? If so, we're all going to have a mildly bad time, because there's no desire to look beyond group labels and instead a blind determination and thought of, "I'll show them, they've never thought of my arguments before!"* where, if they would just shoot the shit first, as you pointed out, they'd realize that by and large TTA is probably filled with people who know the faith as well as they do or better.

*Interesting aside. The old Chair of my department in the doc program got his first adjunct job teaching in a prison. "They've never heard my arguments before" made me think of a story he used to tell about it. We often call prisons "colleges of crime" because you learn new ways of committing your crime or how to commit others, and one day two of his students were whispering back and forth excitedly. When he asked them about it, they were dumb enough to boast they'd never get caught again thanks to the new method they'd learned from another guy in their wing. My prof nodded sagely and then said, "So...he's also in prison and told you this?" The guys didn't seem to get why he asked, until finally he said, "So he got caught too." Suddenly, it didn't seem so fool-proof. In this case, CC reminds me of those inmates; he'd never heard these arguments before, so they must be new and exciting to everyone and unable to fail...except they already have been dealt with before.

Edit:

(17-05-2017 03:56 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Yeah but you know I luv ya and I know it wasn't me as I came to this thread late in the game, trust me Shai I'm purely punking you Big Grin

Thanks adey, and knew you were! Smile Though for a second I thought I was over on AF because there's a guy there who puts 'woof' in all his posts for some reason.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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17-05-2017, 04:12 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
(17-05-2017 04:02 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Actually I somehow glazed over almost all of your interactions with him, so perhaps the lizard part of me is going the whole "amygdala hijacking" route, where it's like "people are going after this jerk, but he's in my tribe, so I have to try and rationalize and defend this jerk to an extent, even though I loathe his behavior"; so maybe I was just going for the empty set. Again I do apologize for coming off as an asshole.
Christ, don't apologise. It'll make me feel bad next time I'm a dick to you.

Quote:Your second part actually hits how I judge new people here who claim to be believers in God. Is their second post in atheism and theism? If so, we're all going to have a mildly bad time, because there's no desire to look beyond group labels and instead a blind determination and thought of, "I'll show them, they've never thought of my arguments before!"* where, if they would just shoot the shit first, as you pointed out, they'd realize that by and large TTA is probably filled with people who know the faith as well as they do or better.

I don't know about that. There's no one like a Christian for going into boring shit in intense detail.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-05-2017, 04:13 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
Ehhhhh k
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17-05-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
(17-05-2017 04:02 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Though, on the cartoon, while cute, I think Murray-O'Hair might disagree, she seemed rather not content to say nothing. Wink

She was among the first of the "New Atheists", and pretty much started the whole "we're not going to take this lying down anymore" movement... for better or worse.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-05-2017, 06:04 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
(17-05-2017 04:03 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  The atheists here were so sensitive I would have chosen my words differently. But see it my way. Who would have thought that " #unthinkingatheist" would hurt the feelings of people who regularly refer to opposing positions as BS. Don't read Feser's book because he insults some atheist writers? True hypocrisy.

Before you get all self-righteous let's try a quick thought experiment. I go to a christian forum, announce that I'm an atheist, jump into a thread and disagree. The first time that anybody disagrees with me I'll escalate and end with #stoopidxtian. What do you figure my time-to-ban is?

You may have had some points but you were incapable of making them because you were too busy picking fights.

Quote:I like talking to atheists. There are sites where you can have reasonable debates. This one seems full of bleating sheep who can't seem to follow a simple thread.

PopcornPopcornPopcornPopcornPopcorn

Sorry, busy enjoying the irony of a Christian trying to insult me by calling me a sheep.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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17-05-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: Had I'd known...



Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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17-05-2017, 07:22 PM
RE: Had I'd known...
I only read CC's intro thread. I had no idea any of this was going on Hobo, I feel so out of the loop Wink Oh well, here's a gif for you CC. May your travels be light or your journey be light...or however the fuck it goes...

[Image: tenor.gif]

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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