Halal and Kosher Slaughter
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13-03-2014, 09:00 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
I heard something about that on NPR. Some Rabbi whining about how their "essential" beliefs are under attack. *As if* some ancient desert hygienic crap, which was IMPORTED from their culture, (IT DID NOT ORIGINATE IN THE BABBLE) was somehow *essential* to modern humans. Facepalm
But, pull out one card, and the *house of cards* tumbles. I suppose they get that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-03-2014, 09:22 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
I used to work fora chicken processing plant. It was vile and disgusting. I no longer eat anything but free-range meat. We've even been talking about getting our own beef again. Clean swift bullet to the brain. Minimal suffering to the animal.
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13-03-2014, 09:31 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
I am all for animal rights, I find it horrendous that many animals suffer. If I had to kill animals myself as the only way to eat meat I would probably struggle, unless I was literally starving to death.

Yet I have grown up never needing to kill anything for my meal, instead I never saw any animal getting slaughtered in real life and got all of my meat, all nicely cut up and tidy from various shops.

So whilst my views are important to me, I cannot deny that they are hypocritical, shaped by my surroundings and from a morally nihilistic point of view pointless as the animal will have died anyway regardless.

I don't think you can kill animals in a caring manner. Yes you can eliminate their suffering but they are still going to be dead at the end.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
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So I say nothing.

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13-03-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
(13-03-2014 09:31 AM)bemore Wrote:  I am all for animal rights, I find it horrendous that many animals suffer. If I had to kill animals myself as the only way to eat meat I would probably struggle, unless I was literally starving to death.

Yet I have grown up never needing to kill anything for my meal, instead I never saw any animal getting slaughtered in real life and got all of my meat, all nicely cut up and tidy from various shops.

So whilst my views are important to me, I cannot deny that they are hypocritical, shaped by my surroundings and from a morally nihilistic point of view pointless as the animal will have died anyway regardless.

I don't think you can kill animals in a caring manner. Yes you can eliminate their suffering but they are still going to be dead at the end.

Given the choice I would rather have the bolt method done to me. Halal/Kosher is torture and needlessly cruel.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-03-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
I would like to point out that religious motives might be overemphasized here since even the OP mentioned that companies are buying halal meat because it's cheaper. So there may very well be a huge greed aspect to this and people are just exploiting the religious loophole.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

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15-03-2014, 05:04 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
I have never worked in slaughter, nor do I know a lot about kosher or halal slaughter. I know the concepts behind it, but what I see from each side seems to be a knee jerk reaction to our fear of death.

As be more stated, it ends in death. And I'm sure death, whether it's that you bleed out or that you are stunned, I doubt it's without pain. Especially if stunning is done improperly, it can inflict more pain than those of halal.

The reality here is that we want to be able to eat, but we feel guilty that something would have to die in order for this to happen.

I cringe whenever I see my cat catch a mouse. Oh she might seem sweet, with a soft mewing and gentle purring...what's miniacle about a kitten? But make no mistake. She is a sadistic killer. She plays with it and tortures the poor thing before she eats it's head.

Do you think when people hunt that it's swift? No.if they don't get a heart or head shot (hard to do), they track the animal till it finally collapses and then they kill it. Do you think it felt no pain? Of course it did.

I've seen deep fishing expoditions where they drag the animal on the boat while it suffocates.

My point is that death is painful. And no matter the methods, we don't like seeing living things die. However, unless you stop eating all meat and fish, it's hypocritical.

People die. Animals die. It's all part of life. Some animals are those we love. Some animals are food.

What strikes me here is the hypocrisy of wanting inexpensive food, yet we don't seem to understand that "free range" means it the chicken doesn't live in a cage it's whole life - but that doesn't mean it has some cushy life. They are kept in one place, and unable to escape in fights. (Most males of a species fight when together)...which means they must kill all the males shortly after birth...now is that humane?

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15-03-2014, 05:35 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
There seems to be this idea from some posters on this thread that, oh well, the animals are going to die anyway and death isn't good therefore one method is good as another.

This is entirely missing the point.

The complaint about Halal and Kosher slaughter is that the animals suffer more solely because of religious dogma. Watch that video and see how quickly the first cow is slaughtered compared to those slaughtered using the Halal method. Which would you choose for your own slaughter? A bolt gun to the head or having your throat cut, being hung up by a single leg and bleeding to death over 5 minutes?

Yes death is painful but why give up trying to minimise the suffering? Why embrace a method that actually extends the suffering? As with the above example, free-range may not be perfect, life isn't perfect, but it is still a hell of a lot better than factory farmed chicken. Which would you prefer if it was your life?

And what's more, religious dogma is undoing the gains that we have made to minimise animal suffering because companies will always try to reduce cost.

In my experience people use this type of thinking in order to convince themselves not to worry about something so they can still continue doing it. I see exactly the same mentality when it comes to people convincing themselves that organic food is pointless for various reasons when the reality is that they just don't want to pay more for their food. Essentially people are trying to find reasons why they shouldn't care.

If people don't want to care then they should just admit it. They do themselves no favours by fooling themselves and trying to fool others in the process.
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15-03-2014, 06:44 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
(13-03-2014 08:25 AM)BnW Wrote:  Just out of curiosity, do all the people signing this petition believe that the non-Halal methods for slaughtering animals is more humane? Did any of you who are now outraged even think to check it out and compare it? Or did you go straight to condemning this one group based only on this video?

I'm no expert on the beef industry, but I strongly suspect that any enterprise that is slaughtering animals wholesale is not spending a lot of time worrying about minimizing the cruelty or horror for the animals. So, unless you are a vegetarian, whether you eat kosher or not, I think you are part of the problem.

What's next? Protesting lions for how they kill antelope?

I fully agree with you.
I suspect there are other motives here behind banning Kosher or Halal related to anti-semitic or Islamic political & religious views NOT animal cruelty (red-herring).
If this was a campaign by some Jainism cult or vegetarians then fine.
The entire meat industry is extremely cruel and if we want to eat meat we have to accept this. Likewise we cannot condemn the lions eating antelope.

There is much controversy and discussion whether stunning really is all that much better - quite correctly it was pointed out that stunning sometimes fails causing MUCH more pain to the animals involved than any Kosher/Halal slaughter. (being badly electrocuted is super painful as anyone who experienced this knows)
Likewise there is rigorous training for Kosher slaughter (I don't fully know about halal) which requires the correct slaughter technique & sharpness of knife - but this can also fail on occasions. Guess this is like the lion inflicting damage on the antelope but the antelope and the lion being a very sloppy killer.

I also think it is a red herring just to concentrate on the "final minutes" of a slaughter when the preceding days and weeks are a potential nightmare for many reasons [animals can anticipate slaughter, crowding, horrific conditions]- possibly much worse for the animals in ANY method of industrial meat production. (Except some private farm)
My family's previous generation for example kept dear and cattle in parts of an estate and then used to bring a slaughterer when required - clearly such a practice is virtually impossible in an industrialized consumerist meat market (even with so called organic claims).

As for the slaughter itself - there are misrepresentation given in the media regarding Halal/Kosher slaughter about animals "bleeding to death" - this is incorrect confusion between the requirement to remove the blood and the slaughter itself. There is a requirement to drain the animal of blood in Halal/Kosher - which may actually be beneficial to humans (but may reduce or does reduce the meats flavor). However the animals dont "bleed to death" - but lose consciousness due to rapid fall in blood pressure. There maybe reflexes post slaughter - I think it is hard to prove scientifically exactly when consciousness it lost - but it is well established in medicine that rapid blood loss causes a quick blood pressure loss and unconsciousness. Even if there was not unconsciousness there is a drowsy sleepy mental state - as we are aware when humans don't even remember time of injury when heavy blood loss occurs. I personally witnessed a carotid bleed - and this was no ordinary "hey I have a bleeding ankle", but quite catastrophic and indelible in my mind. I cannot vouch for the exact experiences of the patient considering the lost consciousness and died before any attempt could be made to control the bleeding (from a ruptured neck tumor).

So when it all put together - if someone is vegetarian then advocate to ban all meat slaughter - but don't advocate hypocrisy as if halal + kosher are some odd exceptions because I suspect a hidden agenda.
Yes, carry on & criticize stupid religious beliefs that make people fly into planes into buildings, treat women like property, endorse slavery, brainwash anti science, cause wars and all the other junk than can come from religious fundamentalism.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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15-03-2014, 06:49 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
(15-03-2014 06:44 AM)Baruch Wrote:  However the animals dont "bleed to death" - but lose consciousness due to rapid fall in blood pressure. There maybe reflexes post slaughter - I think it is hard to prove scientifically exactly when consciousness it lost - but it is well established in medicine that rapid blood loss causes a quick blood pressure loss and unconsciousness.

Did you watch that video?

And no there is no hidden agenda from me. Please do not insinuate that there is. I find it offensive.
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15-03-2014, 08:13 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
(15-03-2014 06:49 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 06:44 AM)Baruch Wrote:  However the animals dont "bleed to death" - but lose consciousness due to rapid fall in blood pressure. There maybe reflexes post slaughter - I think it is hard to prove scientifically exactly when consciousness it lost - but it is well established in medicine that rapid blood loss causes a quick blood pressure loss and unconsciousness.

Did you watch that video?

And no there is no hidden agenda from me. Please do not insinuate that there is. I find it offensive.

You may not have a hidden agenda - but many people do.

Electric shock also fails in many cases causing extreme suffering. The video can show selection bias - not showing what happens when animals don't get shocked properly. Its not like there is a tag on each animal quoting from their afterlife saying:
"i lost consciousness quickly after my carotid was sliced and has 1/10 pain"
"My neck was not cut properly, I bled and did not lose consciousness until 10 mins later and had 11/10 pain"
"The electrocution didn't work for me, my nerves felt like fire, eventually some more electrocution made be tingle to sleep - I felt 11/10 pain"
"As soon as that electric thing hit me I was a gone - I felt 1/10 pain"
"Well the shock wasn't all that bad for me, but the abattoir conditions and transportation was 11/10 pain"

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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