Halal and Kosher Slaughter
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16-03-2014, 06:15 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
Yes Matilda - but is seems that the "religious dogma" for chicken slaughter is more valid and chickane than the methods by the rest of society. Method is also better for the consumer with less risk of contamination and disease from kosher/Halal.

Not everything religious is "dogma". When I left religious orthodoxy and then completely left religion I was on the "everything is religious dogma" bandwagon,
There are religious rules such as not feeding vegetarian animals such as cows meat carcasses which would have prevented problems such as BSE (madcow disease)
Of course you can argue one doesnt need revelation to work this out and it should be "common sense" but it was incorporated into religious codes about how to look after an animal prior to slaughter.

Once again, the veggies can condemn the whole thing. Ultimately a person has to weigh up what they value - the benefits to humans vs price to pay in terms of suffering to animals.

I got into one of these debates with an anti-vivisection lobby spokesman against medical testing in animals. It was quite messy and emotive although off topic.
[ - off topic because a religious outsider perceives there is no benefit whatsoever for the religious rituals whilst pretty much everyone agrees there is human benefit in animal testing for medicine]

Perhaps that's for another blog. How many tortured rats are worth the value of your child's recovery ?

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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16-03-2014, 12:15 PM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
(15-03-2014 06:49 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 06:44 AM)Baruch Wrote:  However the animals dont "bleed to death" - but lose consciousness due to rapid fall in blood pressure. There maybe reflexes post slaughter - I think it is hard to prove scientifically exactly when consciousness it lost - but it is well established in medicine that rapid blood loss causes a quick blood pressure loss and unconsciousness.

Did you watch that video?

And no there is no hidden agenda from me. Please do not insinuate that there is. I find it offensive.

Hi

I threw some pixie dust into this thread and have not had a chance to get back to it, but I wanted to address this.

I think Baruch's point here, and certainly my point was, that that video tells a specific story which may not be the whole truth. The individual who watches the video and reacts to it may not have any hidden agenda but the people who made the video may very well have had one. And, that was my point.

I'm not any kind of expert on the cattle industry but I do know that there have been all kinds of complaints in the US and elsewhere about how cattle and chickens that we eat are treated. The conditions are generlly far less than humane. At least, from what I've read in the past. It is possible that some conditions have been cleaned up, I really have no idea. What i do know is when I see these videos that point out one type of slaughter, and one that is based on religious grounds, I am very suspicious as to the overall motives. I'm not saying Halel slaughter is a good thing, I am saying that I question if it's really that much worse than what happens to animals who are slaughtered all over the world on a regular basis that this one gets hightlighted for special attention.

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16-03-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
There is only one way to ensure animals are treated humanely. That is to make sure that what YOU consume was treated that way. If you eat meat, and also advocate for the humane treatment of animals, then it is you RESPONSIBILITY to seek out humanely treated meat.

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17-03-2014, 06:26 AM
RE: Halal and Kosher Slaughter
(15-03-2014 09:30 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 03:39 PM)Baruch Wrote:  If you watched the video it shows the so called "bolt stunning" to be far from instantaneous - and the video is based on British slaughter of lambs. Some of the lambs are still convulsing well after being "stunned". Of course I don't know what the lambs actually experience whilst convulsing - perhaps it is unconscious reflex, perhaps it is profound pain.

There are other methods in development and potential I heard on a BBC radio 4 debate - something like depressurization chambers or "controlled atmospheric killing"- but at the end of the day any industrialized meat production has cruelty - some animals will not be shocked properly (as the video shows) and some animals may remain conscious after neck is cut (as anti-Halal/kosher video shows).

Beware of selection bias in the video's and hidden agenda's of the reporters - it is easy to pick and choose (confirmation/selection bias) a bolt stunning which goes wrong or a halal/kosher cutting which doesn't kill instantaneously or to mix and match depending on your view. (show a 'perfect stunning' followed by the 'worst' Halal cases')
Again - if concerned be a vegetarian, the animals don't come with a tag giving an individual rating on how much pain they suffered from transportation to slaughter.
As it goes I am more convinced that water electrocution of chickens has more cruelty and is worse for the consumer than kosher/halal. (chickens vomit & defecate in the water as they are stunned - quite nasty to say the least !!!!)
Many references for this.

You can't judge how humane an execution method is based on "convulsions" from electric shocks, or the animal defecating itself.

Humans do the same thing postmortem. Our bowels release, and our nervous systems will continue to register a shock after loss of consciousness.

Chickens are known to continue running around with their head cut off, hence the phrase.

The only reason Halal and Kosher traditions exist, is that they efficiently exsanguinate an animal before butchery. The heart continues to pump, blood drains faster, meat is less likely to spoil without blood.

As noted, these are Bronze Age
Traditions that could be effectively replaced, while retaining the traditional ritual element, and there's no good reason for them not to be.

But I agree on the water electrocution point.
This is untrue. Not all deaths result with the release of ones bowels.

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