"Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-10-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(25-10-2015 01:59 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 12:08 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Cool. Mater or pater?

Jewish mother. I am told that this is what both makes my Jewishness "official" and also lands me in psychotherapy.

On the other hand, I was one of those kids who got presents for both Hanukkah and Christmas (and both parents were atheists, so no awful worship service), so feel free to hate.

That is soooooo unfair. You had it all.

A friend invited us over for Hanukkah one year. The food was amazing! Who knew you can have so much fun without pig!


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
25-10-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(25-10-2015 02:14 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 01:59 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Jewish mother. I am told that this is what both makes my Jewishness "official" and also lands me in psychotherapy.

On the other hand, I was one of those kids who got presents for both Hanukkah and Christmas (and both parents were atheists, so no awful worship service), so feel free to hate.

That is soooooo unfair. You had it all.

A friend invited us over for Hanukkah one year. The food was amazing! Who knew you can have so much fun without pig!

Nothing better, or more sacrilegious -- than bacon wrapped matzo balls.....


Big Grin

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes onlinebiker's post
25-10-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(25-10-2015 06:59 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Hitchens, Harris and Fry... all Jewish "on the side that counts."

(25-10-2015 01:59 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Jewish mother. I am told that this is what both makes my Jewishness "official" and also lands me in psychotherapy.

Oddly enough, very few Jewish communities throughout the world were founded by female Jews. Y chromosomal evidence suggests Jewish men married into non-Jewish populations. This means the "Jewishness" was passed on biologically via the father.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379128/
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ghostexorcist's post
25-10-2015, 05:09 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
The following is a my reply from a history forum in which I discuss, towards the end, cultural Judaism. It centers around the Kaifeng Jews of China who assimlated into the local cultural and lost their religion to time, but still retained a vague Jewish identity.

http://historum.com/asian-history/72603-...ostcount=9

Quote:So you believe people are not Jewish if they don’t follow Jewish law, correct? But said laws are not as adamantine as you think. Take, for example, what I have already mentioned above about genetics suggesting that many of the world’s Jewish communities were started with paternal Jewish DNA. This would mean that many ancient communities were not Jewish since they didn’t strictly follow the Jewish law of maternal descent. But ancient people found ways around this. For instance, Abraham ben Yiju, a noted 12th-century Egyptian Jewish merchant, manumitted a Hindu slave girl a month after his arrival to India and took her as his bride. The resulting offspring should not have been considered Jewish since the mother wasn’t of Jewish blood, yet they were recognized as such simply because she had entered into the religion as a convert.

Also, if Jewish law was static and unchanging, there would only be one type of Judaism. But you and I both know that there have been many schisms within the religion throughout history—First and Second Temple era, Samaritanism, Christianity, Karaitism, Sabbatians and Frankists, Hassidism, etc. There are also several denominations, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist. Which one of these is (was) the “authentic” Judaism? Do people outside of this authentic community—surely numbering in the thousands, if not millions—automatically forfeit their Jewish status simply because they use a different liturgy, practice different rituals, or interpret a particular verse differently? This obviously isn’t the case.

The simple fact is that religions change over time as they come into contact with new cultures, new points of view. Can you say with confidence that none of the sects that I listed were influenced by the cultures (local or foreign) in which they developed? This is why I don’t think the adoption of Confucian elements into Kaifeng Judaism breaks Jewish law. The elements that were absorbed had affinities with already existing Jewish rituals. Most importantly, Confucianism is a system of philosophy and ethics and not a religion (its status as a religion is still highly debated). Paying homage to one’s ancestors or a noted scholar is respectful and not idol worship. This is no different than Jews doing the same thing during Passover, Hanukah, Purim, etc. Jews have long held particular historical figures (holy men, scholars, or a mixture of the two) in high regard. For instance, Jews active in the Middle East would often visit the supposed tombs of such men.

Only a few people chose to study the Confucian classics. As noted, their decision was an economic one. They did this simply to raise their respective family’s social status. They used the resulting wealth and influence to commission the stone inscriptions, dedicate inscribed plaques and archways to the synagogue, and most likely pay for the building and repair of the many houses of worship that were destroyed over the years. But despite all of this, as evidenced by Ai Tian’s kneeling, these Jewish literati still clung to their faith.

The Kaifeng community held fast to its faith over the centuries thanks to its collection of religious documents and connection to world Jewry through an influx of foreigners on the overland and maritime silk routes. There was also a network of Jewish communities in other Chinese provinces that would help each other in times of need. The problem came when a Chinese emperor closed China’s borders during the Ming Dynasty. The Kaifeng community continued to pass on knowledge of Jewish ritual and history to the following generations, but the isolation from their coreligionists outside of China led to them assimilating into Chinese culture much faster than in previous centuries. Less and less people studied Hebrew, and by the 19th-century, the community was pretty much religiously extinct, their synagogue having fallen into disrepair and eventually being destroyed during a time of war. The last rabbi died leaving no one with knowledge of Hebrew. The Jews were destitute at this point, so they started selling off their liturgical texts to Jesuits and Christian missionaries. Anti-foreign (not anti-Jewish) fervor at the beginning of the 20th-century forced Jews to either go into hiding or to take up a native Chinese religion in order to avoid being persecuted or killed. One might argue that they forfeited their Jewish status by doing the latter, but this is no different than the many Jews who took up Christianity or Islam during times of persecution in Europe and the Middle East. They were eventually welcomed back into the faith after some struggle.

Some members of the Kaifeng community never returned to their faith because the spark of religious Judaism had died out. There were no documents to rekindle the faith and no one there to read them even if they did. The important thing to remember, though, is that their descendants still had vague memories of Jewish rituals and/or identified themselves as being somehow different from their Chinese neighbors. As late as the 1980s, a Sino-Judaic researcher recorded an old woman sprinkling her doorstep with blood. Such people may not be practicing Jews in the traditional sense, but they certainly have (if only a little) a cultural Jewish identity. There are plenty of non-practicing Jews across the world who identify as “Culturally Jewish.” The only difference between them and the descendants of the Kaifeng Jews is closer access to Jewish cultural elements. Western Jews are now trying to help the descendants reconnect with their Jewish past by supporting periods of study in Israel.

I’m not personally involved with any effort to fund their study abroad. My interest in the Kaifeng Jews centers primarily on their history. I am, however, associated with the Kaifeng Kehillah Facebook Group, which has members living in Kaifeng helping to revitalize the community. This group is associated with other organizations that are paying to send descendants to Israel. It’s my understanding that those who go live in the same areas historically occupied by the Jews and either have oral knowledge or detailed family records attesting to their Jewish background. Those who study in Israel are eventually welcomed back into the religion.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ghostexorcist's post
25-10-2015, 06:24 PM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2015 06:28 PM by Hafnof.)
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(25-10-2015 12:22 PM)smileXsmileXsmile Wrote:  Very interesting. Is there any other cultural phenomena like that? Can someone be Christian in the cultural sense?

Yes. During the breakup of Yugoslavia the major ethnic groups were often described as Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. But the Muslim group was ethnically Muslim rather than necessarily being religiously Muslim.

With Christianity you sometimes hear the phrase "non practicing" which can mean anything from attending church only at Christmas and Easter to full blown culturally Christian atheist.

But it's probably more common with the Jewish moniker than most other religiously associated labels given the history of the Jewish people and the long standing connection between ethic identity and religious identity within that group.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Hafnof's post
25-10-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(25-10-2015 02:57 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 02:14 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That is soooooo unfair. You had it all.

A friend invited us over for Hanukkah one year. The food was amazing! Who knew you can have so much fun without pig!

Nothing better, or more sacrilegious -- than bacon wrapped matzo balls.....


Big Grin

I dunno. Matzah balls are kinda gross imo. If I weren't a vegetarian, I'd prefer latkes made with bacon-bits and served with apple sauce or sour cream.

And for the record, matzah balls aren't a sacred food (though they are extra-super-Passover-kosher-allowed). For real blasphemy you'd probably have to substitute a ham for the lamb's leg during the Seder.

(25-10-2015 04:58 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 06:59 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Hitchens, Harris and Fry... all Jewish "on the side that counts."

(25-10-2015 01:59 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Jewish mother. I am told that this is what both makes my Jewishness "official" and also lands me in psychotherapy.

Oddly enough, very few Jewish communities throughout the world were founded by female Jews. Y chromosomal evidence suggests Jewish men married into non-Jewish populations. This means the "Jewishness" was passed on biologically via the father.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379128/

Hey! Facts aren't kosher! ... oh wait I don't think they were explicitly prohibited... But it's a stupid traditional standard, it doesn't have to be accurate!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2015, 01:29 AM (This post was last modified: 26-10-2015 05:03 AM by DLJ.)
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(25-10-2015 06:30 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 04:58 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  ...
This means the "Jewishness" was passed on biologically via the father.
...

Hey! Facts aren't kosher!
...

Beat me to it!

So far we have 6:
Hitchens
Fry
Harris
Tartarus
Reltzik
Yours truly

Anyone else here?

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2015, 09:05 AM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(25-10-2015 04:58 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 06:59 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Hitchens, Harris and Fry... all Jewish "on the side that counts."

(25-10-2015 01:59 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Jewish mother. I am told that this is what both makes my Jewishness "official" and also lands me in psychotherapy.

Oddly enough, very few Jewish communities throughout the world were founded by female Jews. Y chromosomal evidence suggests Jewish men married into non-Jewish populations. This means the "Jewishness" was passed on biologically via the father.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379128/

According to mainstream Judaism, Jewishness is never passed on through the father. Only the house is passed down along the male line. Anyone can convert to Judaism, and they're 100% Jewish once they convert. Jewishness cannot be conclusively determined by mtDNA, but it's never determined by the male (in mainstream Judaism, as accepted by the state of Israel.)

If a handful of men broke off and wandered up to Europe, then all they needed to do was convince a few of the local ladies to adopt the Jewish lifestyle and BAM! The Jewish community is up and running. Goodness, even King David was the descendant of a convert. Joshua married a convert, Moses married a Midianite, and Joseph married an Egyptian. The story is telling us that we can expect to see discrepancies in the female line. We should not be able to find significant discrepancies in the Davidic or Kohanim (priestly) line.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
26-10-2015, 10:07 AM
"Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
Out of curiosity, what if I (non-Jew) and a female convert had kids, what house would they be?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2015, 10:11 AM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 10:07 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  Out of curiosity, what if I (non-Jew) and a female convert had kids, what house would they be?

Israelite.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: