"Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
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26-10-2015, 09:35 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 08:41 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 08:19 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  I mentioned converts in one of my previous posts above.

"For instance, Abraham ben Yiju, a noted 12th-century Egyptian Jewish merchant, manumitted a Hindu slave girl a month after his arrival to India and took her as his bride. The resulting offspring should not have been considered Jewish since the mother wasn’t of Jewish blood, yet they were recognized as such simply because she had entered into the religion as a convert."

The mother being of "Jewish blood" is inconsequential. The resulting offspring would be Jewish if the girl converted to Judaism. Any daughters resulting from that union would also carry down the Jewish line to their children. If the girl did not convert, then the offspring would be gentile. Mainstream Judaism holds that a person is either 100% Jewish or 100% Gentile. There are no hybrids, and the line goes through the mother, not the father.

This really isn't something that we can trace through DNA because we can't know the genetic information for every woman throughout the entirety of Jewish history who converted to the religion.

Besides, it's all artificial.
Arguing about the made-up, arbitrary rules of religions gets us to where, exactly? Consider

And what is it that might be tracked in the DNA? Magical auras?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-10-2015, 09:37 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 09:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 09:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What % was Mr. Bojangles? What does it mean to convert to Judaism?




100% Big Grin I'm very proud to count him in the tribe.

Conversion means different things in different generations, but there is a theme that holds true through all of them. A convert adopts Jewish culture, religion and practices and lives among other Jews as though he or she was a native-born Jew.

Once a person converts, they're considered Jewish by the rest of the Jewish community for the rest of their lives whether they like it or not. They will remain Jewish even if they later decide to start worshipping Jesus.

Not in their own minds. Others' opinions are inconsequential.

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26-10-2015, 10:02 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 09:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 09:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  100% Big Grin I'm very proud to count him in the tribe.

Conversion means different things in different generations, but there is a theme that holds true through all of them. A convert adopts Jewish culture, religion and practices and lives among other Jews as though he or she was a native-born Jew.

Once a person converts, they're considered Jewish by the rest of the Jewish community for the rest of their lives whether they like it or not. They will remain Jewish even if they later decide to start worshipping Jesus.

Not in their own minds. Others' opinions are inconsequential.

Well of course. But I'm stating what the qualifications are to be Jewish according to mainstream Judaism. The primary reason for my being so specific was to clarify that we can't pull the rug out from under their feet by saying that in our personal opinions, their "religion experience" wasn't real enough for us and that they probably were never really Jewish in the first place.

-Besides, if another holocaust crops up, they may need that conversion certificate to seek refuge in Israel. It might be nice to know that they have a safety net.
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26-10-2015, 10:05 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 09:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 09:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What % was Mr. Bojangles? What does it mean to convert to Judaism?




100% Big Grin I'm very proud to count him in the tribe.

Conversion means different things in different generations, but there is a theme that holds true through all of them. A convert adopts Jewish culture, religion and practices and lives among other Jews as though he or she was a native-born Jew.

Once a person converts, they're considered Jewish by the rest of the Jewish community for the rest of their lives whether they like it or not. They will remain Jewish even if they later decide to start worshipping Jesus.

If a woman converts are her children Jews?

#sigh
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26-10-2015, 10:07 PM (This post was last modified: 26-10-2015 10:55 PM by Aliza.)
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 08:53 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 08:41 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The mother being of "Jewish blood" is inconsequential. The resulting offspring would be Jewish if the girl converted to Judaism. Any daughters resulting from that union would also carry down the Jewish line to their children. If the girl did not convert, then the offspring would be gentile. Mainstream Judaism holds that a person is either 100% Jewish or 100% Gentile. There are no hybrids, and the line goes through the mother, not the father.

This really isn't something that we can trace through DNA because we can't know the genetic information for every woman throughout the entirety of Jewish history who converted to the religion.

Go back and read the original quoted text. It was my reply to someone on a history forum who didn't think a particular group of Jews in ancient China were actually Jewish. The point I made was that their offspring were Jewish (apart from other factors) because the mothers had converted.

If I remember correctly, a religious court was convened to decide whether or not Abraham's ben Yiju's children should have been considered Jewish. I believe this took place when he returned home to Egypt after having lived in India for over a decade.


Okay, so I missed that first link as I read through this thread. My comment was for link to a different article. Your post on that other forum was very good; I’ve read something else from you about the Kaifeng Jews on another external website and I really liked it. I think I said as much to you, too. Maybe we have a little bit of a vocabulary difference on this thread, but that’s easily ironed out.

In the case of Abraham ben Yiju, the DNA that his children inherit from him is irrelevant for determining Jewishness according to mainstream, traditional Judaism. -The case of one’s Jewishness rest solely on the mother, which I note that you acknowledge in your post. I think where we disagree is that you said that the children’s Jewishness comes from the father in the case of the Indian girl who married the Jewish merchant. I would probably just say that they have 50% genetic material from a person who descends from other Jews. Jewishness, in the sense of belonging to the culture, religion and nationality is solely dependent on the mother, or on formal conversion. House-lines, on the other hand, are genetic.

Whether the mother has Jewish blood or not just isn’t relevant because a convert produces children who are 100% Jewish regardless of the father’s religion or genetic makeup. A Muslim man and a Jewish woman would produce children that are 100% Muslim, and 100% Jewish, while a Jewish man and a Muslim woman would produce children who are neither Jewish nor Muslim according to each religion’s respective laws.

I disagree completely with one particular reply to your original post. Michael Mills seemed to take a very hardline stance on Jews intermingling with other populations, but I think there is precedent in Jewish history to support that Jews have done this, and in some cases, have assimilated completely into those foreign cultures. –In fact, I was taught that assimilation into the foreign culture was all but guaranteed if the host culture wasn’t from an Abrahamic faith. We see this in the Chinese, Indian, and African cultures.

The Kaifeng Jews are not so dissimilar to other communities that have assimilated. If I recall correctly, they’re trying to reclaim their heritage, but there's been a break in the practice of Judaism. I recall reading your paper and thinking to myself that their position would be hard to prove.
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26-10-2015, 10:08 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 10:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 09:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  100% Big Grin I'm very proud to count him in the tribe.

Conversion means different things in different generations, but there is a theme that holds true through all of them. A convert adopts Jewish culture, religion and practices and lives among other Jews as though he or she was a native-born Jew.

Once a person converts, they're considered Jewish by the rest of the Jewish community for the rest of their lives whether they like it or not. They will remain Jewish even if they later decide to start worshipping Jesus.

If a woman converts are her children Jews?

Yes.
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26-10-2015, 10:11 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 10:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 09:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not in their own minds. Others' opinions are inconsequential.

Well of course. But I'm stating what the qualifications are to be Jewish according to mainstream Judaism. The primary reason for my being so specific was to clarify that we can't pull the rug out from under their feet by saying that in our personal opinions, their "religion experience" wasn't real enough for us and that they probably were never really Jewish in the first place.

It doesn't appear that anyone is talking about "religion experience" but about arbitrary rules. Consider

Quote:-Besides, if another holocaust crops up, they may need that conversion certificate to seek refuge in Israel. It might be nice to know that they have a safety net.

We have already had genocides, and those people didn't have a "Get Out of Holocaust Free" card.
A haven for only one group is just more tribalism - and that is the root of the problem in the first place.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-10-2015, 10:14 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 10:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 10:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Well of course. But I'm stating what the qualifications are to be Jewish according to mainstream Judaism. The primary reason for my being so specific was to clarify that we can't pull the rug out from under their feet by saying that in our personal opinions, their "religion experience" wasn't real enough for us and that they probably were never really Jewish in the first place.

It doesn't appear that anyone is talking about "religion experience" but about arbitrary rules. Consider

Quote:-Besides, if another holocaust crops up, they may need that conversion certificate to seek refuge in Israel. It might be nice to know that they have a safety net.

We have already had genocides, and those people didn't have a "Get Out of Holocaust Free" card.
A haven for only one group is just more tribalism - and that is the root of the problem in the first place.

Yes but, we do have a get-out-of-Holocaust free card now. Israel airlifted the entire Jewish community of Ethopia out of Africa and brought them to Israel, where they gained automatic, instant citizenship.
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26-10-2015, 10:16 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 10:08 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 10:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  If a woman converts are her children Jews?

Yes.

I thought if she had children before her conversion they weren't Jewish, but any children after were.

Of course in 50 or 100 years who the hell would remember.?!


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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26-10-2015, 10:22 PM
RE: "Half" Jewish / "Part" Jewish
(26-10-2015 10:16 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 10:08 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Yes.

I thought if she had children before her conversion they weren't Jewish, but any children after were.

Of course in 50 or 100 years who the hell would remember.?!

You're absolutely correct. Only the children born after the conversion are Jewish. Well spotted, Moms.

-Exactly, if the family assimilates, then there is no proof that they have Jewish heritage 50 or 100 years down the line. These cases can be very difficult to prove. -Of course, people can always reconvert; it's just a pain in the neck.
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