Harambe the Gorilla
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03-06-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
Yup they had to shoot him sadly, but my question is regardless of possible lack of proper fencing aside what the fuck and where the fuck were his parents ? Also what the fuck were they doing I'm a dad of two boys and if we were out anywhere I had s firm grasp on them at all times they are my responsibility.
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03-06-2016, 09:46 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
The first thoughtful piece I've seen out of this comes from People Magazine

http://www.people.com/article/harambe-go...-zoo-facts

Quote:4. Western lowland gorillas are critically endangered
Though the western lowland gorilla is the most numerous and widespread of gorilla subspecies, according to the World Wildlife Foundation, they are classified as a critically endangered species. Poaching and disease have caused the population, which is spread across central Africa, to drop over 60 percent over the last quarter-century. The WWF estimates that even if all of the threats to western lowland gorillas were removed, it would take about 75 years for the numbers to recover. Last year, the Cincinnati Zoo wrote that there were about 765 gorillas in zoos worldwide and pegged the western lowland gorilla's wild population at about 175,000.

5. Poaching and habitat destruction are the greatest threats to gorillas in the wild
Logging, mining and agriculture expansion all chip away at gorilla habitats across Africa. Poaching is also a major threat, with one unpleasant twist: In Africa, the "bushmeat" trade – wild animals like gorillas and elephants being killed for human consumption – is a significant threat to gorillas. The Cincinnati Zoo estimated in 2015 that over 1,000 gorillas are poached yearly for the bushmeat "industry."

But let's carry on. Zoo bad. Mother bad. Zoo good. Gorilla good. Kid stupid. Mother stupid. Safety. Wall. Jump. Danger. Repeat.
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03-06-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
Question: If it was so easy for a 4-year-old kid to get into the enclosure, how easy would it be for the gorilla to get out ? (Apparently the mother was okay with the kid climbing over the perimeter fence?)

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03-06-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
(03-06-2016 12:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  RS, dead human kid = lawsuits as long as your arm. Plus tragedy. There was no happy way outta this for zoo authorities. They definitely fucked up, that the kid could get into the enclosure. Once he was in the rest ... kinda they had no choice. Can you imagine if they didn't shoot and the kid was killed in front of everyone there, how having the ability to act and not doing so would have looked in a court of law? They'd be lucky not to be lynched on the spot.

I concur, and I certainly think "threat of a bigger lawsuit" was the motivator, rather than a righteous determination of the real threat level of the gorilla. I know the zoo had to protect the child and that ultimately, a number of factors would place the life of Harambe as less valuable in the equation than that of the boy. That's why I said to have the rifleman on standby as a backup measure, finger on the trigger, in case the gorilla made an actually dangerous move.

I'm also aware that the "dragging and swinging of objects" is a dominance move, but I just don't see that behavior in the way he dragged the child from place to place... I've seen them do that with their own young in a threat situation. Again, I think the gorilla was trying to display against the crowd, which he deemed a threat due to the shrieking, etc.

As for "the experts", yes I have seen many animal handlers who claim that the gorilla was displaying threatening behavior. Many look at the size and strength of gorillas and see danger, when in fact they are mainly peacful unless engaged in dominance behavior with another male (which is a mating behavior, of course). However, I have seen most top-level primatologists agree with my assessment of what his actual behavior was, such as this article from Frans De Waal:

"Seeing more of the videos, I got the impression that Harambe was mostly protective. He showed a combination of protection and confusion. He stood over the child, held him up, moved/dragged him through the water (at least once very roughly), stood over him again. Much of his reaction may have been triggered by public noise and yelling.

There was no moment of acute aggression, as also admitted by the zoo director. If the gorilla had wanted to kill the child, one bang of his fist would have done it. People have no idea of their superhuman strength. Yet, he didn’t perform any killing move. I should also clarify, since people on Facebook have said that gorillas are dangerous predators, that this is entirely wrong. A gorilla doesn’t look at a human child as something edible.

The species is not interested in catching moving objects, the way cats are. Lions or tigers are predators, but gorillas are peaceful vegetarians. They prefer a juicy fruit over a piece of meat any time of the day. The one thing that reliably makes a gorilla male mad is another male who enters his territory or gets too close to his females and young. Haramba surely knew that he was not dealing with competition, hence had no reason to attack. There are several previous cases of toddlers falling into gorilla enclosures, one at the Brookfield Zoo in Chicago and another at Jersey Zoo (UK). In both cases, the children survived the attention of the apes, in one case even receiving assistance from them."


https://ecowatch.com/2016/05/31/killing-...nnati-zoo/

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03-06-2016, 10:21 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
(03-06-2016 10:06 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Question: If it was so easy for a 4-year-old kid to get into the enclosure, how easy would it be for the gorilla to get out ? (Apparently the mother was okay with the kid climbing over the perimeter fence?)
I would really like to see the enclosure, I'll probably try to find a picture today. But from the angle of the pictures, it looked like the enclosure was 10 or 20 feet below the viewing area. I doubt the gorilla had a high probability of getting out.

But think about viewing decks that allow giraffes to be pet, or fed. Similarly, if a human decides "hell, I want to jump in." What's to stop them? Does that warrant legal action against the zoo? Or an expensive redesign of the viewing deck?

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03-06-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
(03-06-2016 10:10 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  That's why I said to have the rifleman on standby as a backup measure, finger on the trigger, in case the gorilla made an actually dangerous move.

Point is you don't want to give it time to make a dangerous move. Why allow it the opportunity to hurt the child before shooting it?

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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03-06-2016, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2016 10:50 AM by Adrianime.)
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
There seems to be a picture of the barrier in this article

[Image: The-gorilla-enclosure-barrier-at-Cincinnati-Zoo.jpg]

The picture isn't very good though, I want to find better ones.

quote from this article
Quote:Thane Maynard, director of the Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Gardens, held a press conference Saturday where he defended the zoo's safety measures. "The barriers are safe. The barriers exceed any required protocols," Maynard said. "The trouble with barriers is that whatever the barrier some people can get past it." Witnesses to the incident Saturday (which zoo officials say is their first barrier breach since 1978) say the 3-year-old boy managed to crawl through fence railings, cross through bushes and climb over another barrier before dropping into the moat with Harambe.

Another description from this article
Quote:According to WLWT-TV, this was the first breach at the zoo since its opening in 1978.

There's also the question of exactly how long Gregg's child was unsupervised. When zoos make exhibits, they employ experts and architects who create barriers to make sure it's difficult for people to get in and for the animals to get out. The Cincinnati Zoo had a barrier, bushes, a 10 to 12-foot drop (there's a wall so the gorillas can't climb out), and a shallow moat enclosing the gorilla exhibit.

Unless Gregg's child was gifted and coordinated, these barriers would make it very difficult, if not delay a child immensely, to get into the enclosure.

It just seems a little puzzling to not be able to keep an eye on your child especially in a place where killing beasts — gorillas, lions, wild African dogs, and wolves — roam. And the missing child must have been missing for some time to get through the barriers on his own.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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03-06-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
(03-06-2016 10:25 AM)JDog554 Wrote:  
(03-06-2016 10:10 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  That's why I said to have the rifleman on standby as a backup measure, finger on the trigger, in case the gorilla made an actually dangerous move.

Point is you don't want to give it time to make a dangerous move. Why allow it the opportunity to hurt the child before shooting it?

Exactly..... Gorilla verses child no contest child wins, however parents stupidity should equal prosecution for child endangerment and being a fat ass Dumbo.
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03-06-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
(03-06-2016 10:06 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Question: If it was so easy for a 4-year-old kid to get into the enclosure, how easy would it be for the gorilla to get out ? (Apparently the mother was okay with the kid climbing over the perimeter fence?)

I think the child went around the right side of the "fence", (if you can even call it that).

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03-06-2016, 11:34 AM
RE: Harambe the Gorilla
(03-06-2016 12:23 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(02-06-2016 08:16 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  If you can't figure out the "human child > gorilla" math -- you need your head examined..
Honestly I don't know if I care more about the life of a stranger human child vs a stranger gorilla. I probably would value the life of a known gorilla over a stranger human.

I know many people who have pets have said that they value their pet's life over that of a stranger.

But ultimately I am not emotionally invested in this case. I get, given how humans value ourselves over other animals, that there were no options. That is, no other sure-fire options that ended with a minimally injured, but almost gauranteed alive child..

As to people valuing their pets over other humans it is the type of person who doesn't know the difference between a dog and a person, mostly women who never had kids calling to their cat "Come to mommy.' How uterly sick can a person get. My neighbor here in the Dominican Republic a 68 year old English speaking Canadian introduces people to "My son Brutus," Brutus being a 140 lb dog. He shot at a motorcyclist that he thinks is the one who kicked at his dog. Take note the accused kicker didn't connect and didn't hurt the dog in any manner, just swung out his foot as the Brute chased his motorcycle.
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