Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
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23-02-2012, 10:31 AM
Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
This struck me recently, as I listened to president candidate Rick Santorum go on and on about how Satan is attacking the US... has anyone ever tried to prove Satan is real?

I'm familiar with most of the current arguments for the existence of God, but I've never even heard someone broach this topic. Has anyone ever heard a single proof for Satan's existence, or does someone want to try to make one? It would seem rather important that theists hold a belief in Satan, because otherwise #1) It's a necessary premise for a belief in demon possession and #2) It's a necessary premise for belief in temptation to do evil. Argue against these if you want, but I have tossed the idea around many times that Satan doesn't exist --- I've just never had anyone to debate on this topic, because I've never heard anyone do more than say "the bible speaks about Satan, therefore he's real". You would think some theist somewhere has built a proof for this idea.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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23-02-2012, 10:53 AM
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
(23-02-2012 10:31 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  #1) It's a necessary premise for a belief in demon possession

Not true. Satan is an angel not a demon. Satan has nothing to do with possession.

Quote:#2) It's a necessary premise for belief in temptation to do evil.

Satan is the embodiment of evil. Satan was created to do evil and serve as a figurehead for evil.

Next, the question remains: Why even have Satan?

This is a tough question that is mostly unanswerable, but I'm going to try.

God created all things; including evil. However, God cannot act outside His nature, thus He cannot be evil. Sin is the wholeness of humanity and righteousness is the wholeness of God. God is a God of order. God is perfection and its figurehead; likewise, Satan is evil and its figurehead.

God created Satan as a physical representation of evil so that evil would have order. Satan was the first of the damned so that God's plan could be fulfilled

Proof for Satan without Biblical authority is impossible. Satan is invisible to us, thus becoming a faith based belief - like God and an inspired Bible. In short, proof for Satan is impossible without faith.

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23-02-2012, 11:20 AM
 
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
(23-02-2012 10:53 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(23-02-2012 10:31 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  #1) It's a necessary premise for a belief in demon possession

Not true. Satan is an angel not a demon. Satan has nothing to do with possession.

Quote:#2) It's a necessary premise for belief in temptation to do evil.

Satan is the embodiment of evil. Satan was created to do evil and serve as a figurehead for evil.

Next, the question remains: Why even have Satan?

This is a tough question that is mostly unanswerable, but I'm going to try.

God created all things; including evil. However, God cannot act outside His nature, thus He cannot be evil. Sin is the wholeness of humanity and righteousness is the wholeness of God. God is a God of order. God is perfection and its figurehead; likewise, Satan is evil and its figurehead.

God created Satan as a physical representation of evil so that evil would have order. Satan was the first of the damned so that God's plan could be fulfilled

Proof for Satan without Biblical authority is impossible. Satan is invisible to us, thus becoming a faith based belief - like God and an inspired Bible. In short, proof for Satan is impossible without faith.

Satan happened before man. God could have EASILY fixed his whole cosmic game and not have had to kill his son if he'd just zapped Satan to begin with. God allowed a loaded gun with the safety off around his children for all time. God did not close the door when a pack of wolves came running at his home full of his children. He's just plain sloppy. The fact he is all knowing shows that he could have seen the death of his own son happening if he allowed Satan to continue. But opted for Satan's continued existence which kinda shows its a premeditated murder of his son.

God killed "ER" for no other reason for being 'wicked in the sight of the lord' (Gen38:7) . He just zapped him dead (very odd verse and situation too!). So was ER MORE wicked than Satan? Cant be.

God demonstrates that he's clearly more powerful than Satan, by casting him into hell...and then predicts winning the cosmic superbowl in revelations. So its not like Satan is God's Peer.

So what does that tell us about God?

This is all one more fine example as to the character of the made up OT god and his S&M kink. He set all this in motion for the one purpose of suffering (if he existed). Freaking maniac. Who would want to worship this sloppy god?

As for Satan's proof? The fact that god exists (to Christians) and there is a book about all of it...its enough proof for them. Every story requires a villain.

The whole 'Satan's Fall' story should be enough for any rational person to call "BULLSHIT" on the whole story. It clearly shows to me that god is not all powerful or all knowing....or he's just plain sloppy.

D
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23-02-2012, 03:40 PM
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
(23-02-2012 10:53 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(23-02-2012 10:31 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  #1) It's a necessary premise for a belief in demon possession

Not true. Satan is an angel not a demon. Satan has nothing to do with possession.

Well, by demon I mean a "fallen angel". Doesn't Christian theology hold that the "demons" that possess people are among the fallen angels that left with Lucifer during his fall? I could be wrong... the bible isn't very clear on this, from my point-of-view.

Quote:
Quote:#2) It's a necessary premise for belief in temptation to do evil.

Satan is the embodiment of evil. Satan was created to do evil and serve as a figurehead for evil.

I don't think you're actually disagreeing with me here, but I was on thin ice when I proposed this... I have little certainty, because I've never heard any discussions on this topic either pro or con. It sounds good in my head. Anyway...

Quote:Proof for Satan without Biblical authority is impossible. Satan is invisible to us, thus becoming a faith based belief - like God and an inspired Bible. In short, proof for Satan is impossible without faith.

I felt this way true, too, but then again I thought for the longest time that the only proofs for God were based solely on scripture. Because of this experience, I would be surprised to hear a proof for Satan outside of the bible... but I'm not certain that it couldn't happen.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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23-02-2012, 03:46 PM
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
If God cannot be evil then God is not omnipotent.

God cannot be not omnipotent.

Therefore, God is not real.

Therefore, Satan is not real.


/thread

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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23-02-2012, 03:55 PM
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
(23-02-2012 03:40 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Well, by demon I mean a "fallen angel". Doesn't Christian theology hold that the "demons" that possess people are among the fallen angels that left with Lucifer during his fall? I could be wrong... the bible isn't very clear on this, from my point-of-view.

Well, theologically a fallen angel is vastly different from a demon. Most Christians associate Satan and fallen angels with demons because they are evil unseen entities. Your typical Christian just jumbles them all together and leaves it at that.

Angels cannot posses.

Many, many theologians believe that demons are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. This is fully describe in the Book of Enoch which many theologians give credence to.

Quote:I don't think you're actually disagreeing with me here, but I was on thin ice when I proposed this... I have little certainty, because I've never heard any discussions on this topic either pro or con. It sounds good in my head. Anyway...

Yeah, I think we're agreeing. God made Satan the symbol of evil.

Quote:I felt this way true, too, but then again I thought for the longest time that the only proofs for God were based solely on scripture. Because of this experience, I would be surprised to hear a proof for Satan outside of the bible... but I'm not certain that it couldn't happen.

Any proof outside the Bible for Satan could be blamed on a variety of reasons: any of the 7 deadly sins, mental instability, psychological reason, sociological reasons, etc

So, I don't think there could be any definitive proof for Satan outside the Bible.

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23-02-2012, 04:08 PM
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
This is an often quoted statement:

Quote:Ig: "In a lot of ways, I guess Satan was the first superhero."
Glenna: "Don't you mean supervillain?"
Ig: "Nah. Hero, for sure. Think about it. In his first adventure, he took the form of a snake to free two prisoners being held naked in a Third World jungle prison by an all-powerful megalomaniac. At the same time, he broadened their diet and introduced them to their own sexuality. Sounds like a cross between Animal Man and Dr. Phil to me."
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23-02-2012, 05:52 PM
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
We have Satan because he really works well as a story character.
Frightens the hell out of the children Tongue

The Christian defense for the existence of evil in the world is "free will" and Satan is unnecessary as a cause.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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23-02-2012, 06:39 PM
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
(23-02-2012 10:53 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Satan is the embodiment of evil. Satan was created to do evil and serve as a figurehead for evil.

Next, the question remains: Why even have Satan?

This is a tough question that is mostly unanswerable, but I'm going to try.

God created all things; including evil. However, God cannot act outside His nature, thus He cannot be evil. Sin is the wholeness of humanity and righteousness is the wholeness of God. God is a God of order. God is perfection and its figurehead; likewise, Satan is evil and its figurehead.

God created Satan as a physical representation of evil so that evil would have order. Satan was the first of the damned so that God's plan could be fulfilled

Proof for Satan without Biblical authority is impossible. Satan is invisible to us, thus becoming a faith based belief - like God and an inspired Bible. In short, proof for Satan is impossible without faith.

Dude, you're losing it. The more you explain it the less sense you make. SO let me see if I get this straight: I build an atomic bomb, I launch it towards some countries. Everybody there dies. Not my fault. The bomb did it. I am a good person. I just made something horrible for no good reason and I didn't exactly release it because I was holding the joystick all the time so I made sure that it will inflict maximum damage, but everything that happened after that is all the bomb's fault.

My plan was good because I succeeded at delaying overpopulation by a few hundred years. Sure, I could have reached the same result through education and economic restrictions to discourage excessive reproduction, not to mention the fact that spending more resources on space exploration and extraterrestrial colonization technologies would provide a much more elegant solution especially on the long term, but it went boom and it made a cool flash and it was fucking easy. All the death and suffering and malformations and poisoned lands are the bomb's fault because I am a very nice person and I couldn't possibly do something bad. Ask my dog. He'll tell you.

I said it before and I'll say it again: dude, your god IS Satan by any standards. You can't be all good and at the same time the source of all evil. Know the tree by its fruit?

Wake up and smell the coffee. Your god is evil. And creepy. I wish to remind you that according to your theology he is having this conversation with himself. Somebody dropped your god when he was little because he is seriously fucked up. Just look at what he is making me say about him and that should be enough to get the idea.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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23-02-2012, 06:58 PM
RE: Has Anyone Ever Made a Positive Case for Satan?
Well.....Satan has killed far less people than god.

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