Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
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07-03-2013, 05:49 PM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(07-03-2013 05:30 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  So... you accept the evidence of tests as proof? Interesting. Do you believe that prayer can be tested? If it shows up negative, do you believe that proves that you don't have a God? Or do you believe (as we do) that tests are only good evidence but can be demonstrated to be faulty?

Prayer studies are fatally flawed and no one should believe they are evidence God does not exist or that God does not answer prayers. We did a thread on this.
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07-03-2013, 06:42 PM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(07-03-2013 05:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:30 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  So... you accept the evidence of tests as proof? Interesting. Do you believe that prayer can be tested? If it shows up negative, do you believe that proves that you don't have a God? Or do you believe (as we do) that tests are only good evidence but can be demonstrated to be faulty?

Prayer studies are fatally flawed and no one should believe they are evidence God does not exist or that God does not answer prayers. We did a thread on this.

Prayer by its self might be flawed, and I gave a few reasoned examples of why prayer may not work in the first place.

Considering that prayer does work. IE Pray to god for healing of another. Then you'd see a statistical difference in well being, between groups.

As always you guys have to move the goalposts. Asserting that the prayers have to be genuine, and the recipients believers themselves, accepting of healing or that for many of them god has "called them home".

If you put limits on prayer, then you by definition put limits on god. God becomes able but not willing, or willing but not able.

If god called them home then no prayer will work. However if a person is treated and survives by that treatment then you'd also have to say that you are going against the will of god.

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07-03-2013, 06:53 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 06:57 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
Now many things can be disproven by comparing the positive claims of what is known about the world, to positive claims about what is known about the claim. By showing that the claim is logically inconsistent and contradictory with what is known about the world and logic, we can infer a high probability of non-existence. IE. Santa Claus delivering presents to every child in the world with out breaking known laws of physics, makes his existence 99% improbable.

However try describing something by using negative statements, and you'll soon come to a problem. There are so many things that the thing your are trying to describe isn't, that it becomes practical to describe the item in terms of what it is.

So, to prove something doesn't exist you need to see the positive claim, and show that it's logically inconsistent, and contradictory.

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07-03-2013, 07:09 PM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(07-03-2013 04:38 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  I feel its a valuable trait to know when you are wrong, and concede. And, although very unlikely, if God were proven to exist, most here who had claimed otherwise, would admit they were wrong.

Now, I just saw Heywood Jebusblome claim that he would concede if God were proven not to exist. I'm just wondering if its even possible to prove something doesn't exist. Even if the method is out of our grasp, how COULD it be done?
The existence of God is very easily disproven. He is, according to his description, a contradictory being. It's said that he's omnipotent and omniscient but, if he can change the future, he cannot know the future. Likewise, if he knows the future, he cannot change it. Thus, a being that is omnipotent and omniscient cannot exist. He's also described as being incorporeal and that which is incorporeal does not exist.

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07-03-2013, 07:23 PM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
For something to exist, it must meet the definition of existence.
It must have some property that can be measured and shown to interact with the universe and or the forces of said universe.

A claim is made that a rather large elephant is sitting on my car at this very moment.
We know elephants exists and what it's properties are as a living creature.
We know they have mass, weight, etc.
As I observe my car, I see that my car is unchanged. It visually doesn't have an elephant sitting on it.
The car has no indication that anything as heavy as an elephant is currently sitting on it.

So yes, I can prove that something which does exist, like an elephant, doesn't exist in all places.
They only exist where we observe them existing. Proving that something is not here means proving that it isn't interacting with the universe or the forces of said universe within a certain locale.

In other words. No evidence of existence in a certain place of something that has been shown to exist, means that in that place, that certain thing doesn't exist.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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07-03-2013, 07:27 PM
Re: RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(07-03-2013 04:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  How is it out of your grasp? You can have a test for STDs and prove you don't have one. You can have a urine test for the absence of drugs in your system, etc. - the whole "you can't prove a negative" is meant practically to give relief to the accused in trials and has been completely misappropriated by your freethinkers' culture to say something that is well... silly, IMHO.

Are you proving those aspects to absolute certainty? Enough to show up as evidence in court but those are tests that could be skewed or not 100% accurate.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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07-03-2013, 07:44 PM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
Lab tests are far from proof. Many false negatives and false positives occur .When symptoms persist despite negative tests I repeat them.
I agree nothing can be disproven 100%.
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07-03-2013, 08:10 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 09:43 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(07-03-2013 05:04 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I don't believe that you can prove something doesn't exist anywhere. You can only prove it doesn't exist in specific areas.
I'd like to tweak Impulse's comment to read:

I don't believe you can prove something doesn't exist anywhere at anytime.
You can only prove certain things don't exist at specific times in specific places.

To elaborate let me use the term "Black Swan". It was coined in England and used to mean something that didn't exist. Then the English land in Australia and pow! They find black swans and bring them back to England as proof of their existence. (Nowdays the term means an event very unlikely to happen.)

I say gods don't exist. But if tomorrow someone were to bring one back, in a matter of speaking, then I'd be happy to reconsider my thinking. I'm not saying one will never be found, I'm simply saying none have been found and no empirical evidence (as opposed to rationalist) has been presented.

Bring me a "Black Swan" so that I may believe. Anything short of this is just chatter babble.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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07-03-2013, 11:54 PM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
Before 1905 scientists believed that ether existed. This belief was prompted by the discovery that light is a wave. If light is a wave, what is waving? They came up with the idea of ether, which supposedly filled all of space, even a vacuum. Physicists Michelson and Morley built a device to detect the ether and failed. Then in 1905 Einstein published his Special Theory of Relativity, whose first axiom is "the ether cannot be detected," tantamount to saying the ether does not exist but Einstein was unwilling to go that far at that time. Now the Special Theory of Relativity is correct, otherwise you have to come up with alternate explanations as to why nuclear weapons do go off when triggered, and why GPS receivers have to compensate of time dilation caused by the movement of the satellites.

Ergo, the ether does not exist.

Well, not exactly. It's just that you do not need the concept of ether to explain all observed data.

It's the same with God. You do not need the concept of God to explain all observed data.

Humans arrived on Earth on 22 October 4004 B.C. A few of us are still trying to repair the ship.
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07-03-2013, 11:56 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 11:59 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(07-03-2013 05:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:30 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  So... you accept the evidence of tests as proof? Interesting. Do you believe that prayer can be tested? If it shows up negative, do you believe that proves that you don't have a God? Or do you believe (as we do) that tests are only good evidence but can be demonstrated to be faulty?

Prayer studies are fatally flawed and no one should believe they are evidence God does not exist or that God does not answer prayers. We did a thread on this.
I already know where you stand on prayer studies. You haven't made a claim that tests are convincing to you, so unless you agree with what PleaseJesus stated here, your position is not inconsistent. So perhaps you shouldn't take attacks on other people's stances so personally. I wasn't arguing that you personally did or thought anything wrong.

But to the point of your prayer study thread, I think it's fair to say that you didn't win me over.

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