Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
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09-03-2013, 08:43 AM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(09-03-2013 08:34 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

No apology present, but better. That being said, all you've offered is a counter with no support. You simply interpret his statements differently. And you still haven't responded to my wider point. So I recognise what you're saying, I just have no reason to accept it and less to abandon my position.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
No apology proffered because I did not do anything that required an apology.

You are interpreting his presentation as a syllogism and I am interpreting it as a simile. We disagree.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-03-2013, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2013 10:30 AM by ufo42.)
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(08-03-2013 08:25 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-03-2013 08:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Define likely, please.

It's traditionally defined as +/- 2 standard deviations from the mean which covers 95% of the observations.

(08-03-2013 08:08 AM)frankiej Wrote:  Well, a lot of atheists are agnostic, in fact, probably most... I am. I guess you've never heard of an agnostic atheist. You should get out more.

Only reason I call myself an atheist is it cuts short any further discourse with metaphysical retards. I sure as hell ain't gonna tell a fundie evangelist I'm an agnostic just so I can listen to more of their drivel as they try to convert me. Only encourages their proselytizing.
Agnostic means you don't know. Atheist means you do not have a belief in the existence of a god. Two different but not mutually incompatible things. Most atheists are both. If you don't believe something exists, you logically also don't know that it exists, although some people manage it. They don't really believe God exists but they "know" He does because they want to get laid by a cute fundie. Smile

When I was in high school (3 "abstinence only sex education" generations ago Smile ), I used to get into theological arguments with a Jehovah's Witness kid with whom no one else in school would talk because he disagreed with their religions. He would (to his credit) keep trying to convert me while nervously looking around for the cloud from which the thunderbolt would come to punish me for calling God an asshole. He was always kind of befuddled when it never came. Maybe he concluded that I was Satan in disguise. He also was convinced that the US space program was a hoax because "God would destroy the earth if man dared to set foot on a heavenly body".

I don't fault fundies for trying to convert the rest of us. If they believe their loving God is going to send us to hell for eternal torture, absurd as that belief is, their efforts to save us from that fate does seem to do them some moral credit. I do fault them for failing to spot the glaring contradiction in their concept of a loving God who is so petty that he feels the need to eternally torture countless millions of people for the "crime" of failing to appreciate His Highly Flawed Goodness. Some seem to manage to get past that contradiction by tacitly dropping the "loving" part of His Definition and just going with being God Fearing -- a slightly more intellectually honest but still pretty absurd position.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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09-03-2013, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2013 10:46 AM by ufo42.)
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(08-03-2013 02:32 AM)TheJackal Wrote:  If nothing existed, not even nothing would exist.. By logical consequence, is it not nothing to which is proven to not exist?
Lawrence Krauss argues that "Nothing" as defined by some theologians (no space, no time, no laws of quantum mechanics) cannot exist. The theologians posit that such a nothing was all there was before God created the Universe, but of course, if that was the case, where was God and what was he made of? We're back to the bi-level Universe neither our or God's part of which by its own definition is the Universe (defined as all there is or ever was). In his "A Universe out of Nothing" book (highly recommended, by the way) Krauss posits how our visible universe popped into existence due to quantum fluctuations in empty space within the context of a larger Universe which is infinite in space and time.

IMHO, speculations like Krauss' are much more useful than theological arguments which ultimately amount to: "Sit down and shut up and stop asking questions of your mysterious God. All the answers are in the Bible."

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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09-03-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(08-03-2013 01:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Atheism is not a belief system and it's not a religion, but you know that; you're just being much more flagrant in your trolling than you usually are.
Atheism is a belief without proof--isn't that both a non-empirical belief and the definition of religion that is pushed around here? Smile
Atheism is belief without 100% logical proof. I believe you're not going to track down my IP address and kill me for disagreeing with you here, but I have no logical reason to be absolutely 100% sure of that belief. Still, I hold that belief. Similarly, I am an atheist because I have sufficient reasonable (to me) grounds to believe that there is no god. Similarly, I believe there are no ghosts, spirits, fairies, afterlife experiences, etc... all without logical proof. The legal system in many US states sends people to their (widely believed to be justified) deaths based not on logical proof, but on "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" that they have committed some heinous crime. God is like that. There is, IMHO, proof beyond a reasonable doubt that He does not exist. All empirical proofs are like that. You go with the best evidence you have even though you know that you can't ever have 100% beyond any doubt proof that what you empirically believe to be true is necessarily logically true. The logical proofs of theorems in geometry or other branches of mathematics deal with abstract concepts. Empirical proofs deal with the messy, sometimes illogical real world. If you required logical proofs of everything you might want to believe, you could never do or be anything because in most cases, such proofs are just not available.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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09-03-2013, 11:02 AM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(08-03-2013 10:10 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-03-2013 08:38 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I doubt you will ever prove unicorns don't exist, ...

Sure you can.

1. If unicorns had existed, then there is evidence in the fossil record.
2. There is no evidence of unicorns in the fossil record.
3. Therefore, unicorns never existed.


(08-03-2013 08:35 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Oh, no, I have heard all this! I just think you need to change the site name to The Thinking Agnostic and be honest...

To be honest, I'm neither an atheist nor an agnostic. I continually redefine God as the currently most plausible explanation. I'm a scientist. Religions' problem is they are inflexible. They will never admit redefinition. And that will be their ultimate demise.

(08-03-2013 09:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  God is a "higher power" and the power of God can enter or exit one's life in practical ways via the medium of prayer.

Or in even more practical ways via physics and mathematics and chemistry and astronomy and cosmology and ... it's quite a long list of ways more practical than prayer.
I saw a video of a unicorn in a Toronto park a few weeks ago. It turned out some joker had crazy-glued a toilet plunger to a white horse's forehead. Still the video was pretty convincing for about 13s. Smile

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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09-03-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
(09-03-2013 08:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-03-2013 07:52 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Chas.

That, to be blunt, is bullshit.

I have defended Dawkins ideas against members of THIS FORUM countless times.

I just don't support ALL of his ideas because I'm not credulous.

An ad hominem attack is an argument against one's opponent rather than against their ideas. You did EXACTLY THAT when you suggested that my entire argument, only a small fraction of which had to do with Dawkins, was invalid because of a personal issue, that you fabricated, between myself and Dawkins. The implication is that I haven't provided a detailed and reasoned argument, I'm just out to get Dawkins. It was a textbook ad hominem attack and it wasn't appreciated.

I have NEVER attacked Dawkins himself. I have criticised SOME of his ideas because they're flawed. They remain flawed, which is why I repeatedly criticise them over time.

So unless you plan to engage directly with the actual substance of what I said, then we're done here. I will no longer speak to this.

I will return to the original point. You said:
Quote:The link is, "We can't disprove God. We also can't disprove the teapot. But we don't believe in the teapot. There's no teapot religion. Therefore we shouldn't believe in God."

It's an end run.

I can't prove my thing THEREFORE your thing is wrong. That's some twisted logic right there.

(And for the record, Dawkins does exactly that in The God Delusion.)


And I disagree as you have misrepresented the argument. He has not created a syllogism as you have, he has used the teapot argument as a simile.
There is no teapot religion, but such a religion would be no more ridiculous than any other religion which believes in something purely based on taking someone's completely unsupported word for it... therefore, if you agree the teapot religion would be ridiculous, you should also agree that your God religion is ridiculous... and for the same reason.

"Heresy makes for progress" - Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner
[1 Corinthians 13:11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. - The Bible King James Version. See? Even the Bible says "Put me down!" Big Grin
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09-03-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
I have given this topic more thought than it deserves because it bugs me on an intellectual level.

If when measured, the object of your measuring can be classified as non-existent when.....

It's length is 0
It's width is 0
It's height is 0
It's energy is 0
It's mass is 0

All known measurable quantities, that existent things in our universe possess, are zero, then I think you can say that you have proven that the "thing" in question does not exist.

Here is the thing though. Some people want to label things as absolutes. Are you absolutely sure ? 100% ?
As we gain the ability to measure quantities that we previously didn't know about or discover new things about our universe that we didn't know existed, then we can move previously thought of "items" from the column of non-existent into the column of things that exist.


For now, we know what we know and we cannot know what we do not know until we discover it.
Discovery requires science and evidence and poking your nose in places that frankly you probably wouldn't want your nose to go.

Faith doesn't make discoveries. Faith is what you do when you stop caring about the truth.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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10-03-2013, 06:52 AM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
Chas.

Whatevs.

Hey, UFO.

Quote:There is no teapot religion, but such a religion would be no more ridiculous than any other religion which believes in something purely based on taking someone's completely unsupported word for it... therefore, if you agree the teapot religion would be ridiculous, you should also agree that your God religion is ridiculous... and for the same reason.

Thank you for proving my point.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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11-03-2013, 06:40 AM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
Quote:I don't fault fundies for trying to convert the rest of us. If they believe their loving God is going to send us to hell for eternal torture, absurd as that belief is, their efforts to save us from that fate does seem to do them some moral credit. I do fault them for failing to spot the glaring contradiction in their concept of a loving God who is so petty that he feels the need to eternally torture countless millions of people for the "crime" of failing to appreciate His Highly Flawed Goodness.
You've got the part right about our sincerity. What is incorrect is this idea that people are lost because of any reason other than they reject the payment for their sin. Only perfect people may be admitted to Heaven.
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11-03-2013, 06:47 AM
RE: Has anything ever been proven NOT to exist?
Define perfect, in a way which is not simply your personal definition.

And make it detailed.


I mean, what is a "perfect person" anyway?

There will always be faults to every human.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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