Has atheism become religion?
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09-07-2013, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2013 04:55 PM by TwoCultSurvivor.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(08-07-2013 11:01 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Would you say that theism is a religion?

A little late to this ball game, but in the same limited way I would say atheism is a religion (for first amendment, US Constitutional law purposes), I would say theism is a religion. Deism. Pantheism. Any of that.

See, certain Christians like to slip God references into public (and by public I mean government funded) displays and such by arguing that since no specific religion is being invoked, the reference is not establishing a religion.

It's hypocritical: Christians and other theists accuse government of endorsing atheism in violation of the first amendment (they are wrong: not discussing God is not the same as denying his existence). Yet they want to invoke God without being specific to any religion, thus slipping by the first amendment when it suits them. (Never mind that the God of the Bible HATES being mixed in with all those other possible gods).

If atheism is a religion for first amendment purposes, then so is theism. "There is a God" is just as unacceptable as "There is no God" [when it's coming from the U.S. government or its states/cities]

Needless to say, I oppose the pledge of allegiance and putting in god we trust on our currency.
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09-07-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
The issue I have with the U.S legal system is that it doesn't present the option to select irreligion.

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09-07-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
As for the churches, I think that may actually be a good idea. Non-religious people need a place to congregate with like-minded others on a regular basis. However, I think as for insulting those who aren't Atheists, it's unacceptable. Your conclusion isn't the only conclusion someone can reach. Debate is one thing, bullying is another. There are some religious people who have worldviews much more similar to mine than some prominent Atheists. The world, or at least my world, would be worse if not for them.

Semper requiremus veritatis.
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09-07-2013, 06:59 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2013 08:20 PM by childeye.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(09-07-2013 04:59 AM)Shannow Wrote:  Oh, I've missed these. After a year in the wilderness it's so refreshing to come back to this.

Thanks Childeye for these posts...they're just super.

I love how in post #90, ride the spiral showed you a dictionary that mentions the words 'blind trust' and you found one that didn't have those words in the definition. Google acrobatcis FTW.

It's...just...super, please keep going.
Hi Shannow, thank you for your response. Yes I do agree that the word faith can be seen as a blind trust, as I have indicated before. The point remains that we all trust in something or someone and that trust is a vital component to any good relationship.

Quote:So far I've learnt that: I don't love my wife, that she may or may not love me (damn agnostics) and each time I jump in my car I'm reliant on faith rather than the highway code (a set of rules & guidelines in the UK that govern road safety) or my ABS brakes or the amazing safety/navigation technology to get me home.
I'm sorry, I don't follow how you have learned you don't love your wife because she is an agnostic. Love is actually quite tolerant. As for your faith in ABS brakes, highway code, or navigation technology, you make my point quite well. I think we would actually agree. And why shouldn't we?

Quote:Should I conduct some kind of sacrifice to the gods of motoring before going home or is paying road tax enough?
Your funny. Thank you. I sincerely enjoyed your discourse.
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09-07-2013, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2013 09:21 PM by childeye.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(09-07-2013 04:11 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Sorry, but I respectfully must disagree again. All of these dictionaries you provided do qualify my use of the term. Note: the Encyclopedia Britannica; in more humanistic or naturalistic forms of religion, they are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitudes toward the broader human community or the natural world. This speaks to atheism quite well in my view.

It says more humanistic or naturalistic forms of religion, implying they must first be a religion. It does not support your view at all, since you already make the assumption that it is a religion.
I suppose you could interpret it that way. I would remark that the definition is describing the meaning of the word religion. It therefore must be assumed that it is a religion they are describing. Since it describes a certain "form" of religion as humanistic, I must in all honesty take it to mean without any God or gods necessary. Please note: humanistic Web definitions
humanist: of or pertaining to a philosophy asserting human dignity and man's capacity for fulfillment through reason and scientific...



(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Note: The Farflex dictionary; 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Quote:It's a good thing religion isn't that.
On the contrary I think this is a well rounded umbrella which many religions fall under quite nicely. Islam is well characterized as, "a cause" pursued with zeal and conscientious devotion.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  If I may suggest to you a thought about language. Dictionaries do not dictate language, nor do they make people right or wrong when trying their honest best to communicate. They offer many definitions for one word according to how a word is commonly used. Buddhism is commonly recognized as a religion even though they do not care to define their belief as a worship of God. But that is understandable since the Buddha was raised in an environment with many so called gods. Nonetheless the Buddha was a theist.

Quote:What provides the definition of words then? How do we determine what words mean?
Indeed that is my point. Dictionaries offer many differing definitions that vary from the same root word. To me it is not an issue of my dictionary interpretation vs. yours, or who articulates best. Dictionaries are meant to bring better understanding of spoken sentiments. There are therefore also connotations, semantics, syntax. Have it your way if it's become a contest. In reality language is about understanding the sentiments each other is trying to express in all honesty that makes for profitable communication.
Quote:Fucking hell, childeye, you are blind and ignorant beyond comprehension.
Sorry, I do my best.

Quote: You are so desperate as to question the validity and purpose of multiple dictionaries.
Not at all. I simply know all dictionaries don't always all agree. Besides, when language was invented, I am certain it didn't come from a dictionary. Consequently, dictionaries do not dictate conversation, they are meant to improve communication and understanding. Religions are not all the same. Consequently we should not conflate religion with God and create straw man arguments. Whatever you want to call it, all people have varying perspectives of what is perceived as Truth. It would be hypocritical to not consider how we can be wrong or ignorant in some manner, or simply misunderstanding others when we differ.
Quote:Oh, and Buddhism is not a theistic religion.
I didn't say it was. I said the Buddha believed in gods.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  What I am trying to say is there is a moral Truth that exists as empathy. All people should acknowledge this Spirit. The bible does, so what's wrong with that? It's people who have usurped this Truth for personal stature and gain who defile and slander what has always been a persons' moral center.

Quote:And that is a great personal belief that you have. Don't make it sound like it is objective.
Speaking objectively and subjectively at once, this moral Truth called empathy is commonly expressed as love others as you would want to be loved. Everyone I have ever met knows Love/empathy. It is not my personal belief. It is a well known fact that we all experience personally. It is not a superstition, nor a religion.
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09-07-2013, 07:34 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2013 08:22 PM by childeye.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(09-07-2013 04:43 PM)FrostyMan Wrote:  As for the churches, I think that may actually be a good idea. Non-religious people need a place to congregate with like-minded others on a regular basis. However, I think as for insulting those who aren't Atheists, it's unacceptable. Your conclusion isn't the only conclusion someone can reach. Debate is one thing, bullying is another. There are some religious people who have worldviews much more similar to mine than some prominent Atheists. The world, or at least my world, would be worse if not for them.
These words have the wisdom of an open mind with a compassionate heart. Purity of honesty is admirable. Thank you FrostyMan.
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10-07-2013, 03:21 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(09-07-2013 07:25 PM)childeye Wrote:  I suppose you could interpret it that way. I would remark that the definition is describing the meaning of the word religion. It therefore must be assumed that it is a religion they are describing. Since it describes a certain "form" of religion as humanistic, I must in all honesty take it to mean without any God or gods necessary. Please note: humanistic Web definitions
humanist: of or pertaining to a philosophy asserting human dignity and man's capacity for fulfillment through reason and scientific...

And another pointless non-sequitur?

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Note: The Farflex dictionary; 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Ah, yes. Another pointless non-sequitur.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  On the contrary I think this is a well rounded umbrella which many religions fall under quite nicely. Islam is well characterized as, "a cause" pursued with zeal and conscientious devotion.

It was sarcasm.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  If I may suggest to you a thought about language. Dictionaries do not dictate language, nor do they make people right or wrong when trying their honest best to communicate. They offer many definitions for one word according to how a word is commonly used. Buddhism is commonly recognized as a religion even though they do not care to define their belief as a worship of God. But that is understandable since the Buddha was raised in an environment with many so called gods. Nonetheless the Buddha was a theist.

Dictionaries provide all of the possible definitions of words. They absolutely provide the guidelines for the usage of the word "religion", which you have continuously been using incorrectly. And, if you learned anything from the definitions of religion, you'd know that the worshiping of a deity does not constitute religion.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Indeed that is my point. Dictionaries offer many differing definitions that vary from the same root word. To me it is not an issue of my dictionary interpretation vs. yours, or who articulates best. Dictionaries are meant to bring better understanding of spoken sentiments. There are therefore also connotations, semantics, syntax. Have it your way if it's become a contest. In reality language is about understanding the sentiments each other is trying to express in all honesty that makes for profitable communication.

Not only have all of these definitions provided by this multitude of dictionaries been in total agreement, but you are completely wrong. Every possible interpretation of the word "religion" provide no logical justification to assume that the entirety of atheism is religious. One cannot simply redefine any word to make a point.

Stop making yourself look absolutely stupid.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Sorry, I do my best.

You certainly do seem to try to be as ignorant as you can be.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Not at all. I simply know all dictionaries don't always all agree. Besides, when language was invented, I am certain it didn't come from a dictionary. Consequently, dictionaries do not dictate conversation, they are meant to improve communication and understanding. Religions are not all the same. Consequently we should not conflate religion with God and create straw man arguments. Whatever you want to call it, all people have varying perspectives of what is perceived as Truth. It would be hypocritical to not consider how we can be wrong or ignorant in some manner, or simply misunderstanding others when we differ.

It is a good thing I am not wrong.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  I didn't say it was. I said the Buddha believed in gods.

Excellent, so instead of stating something about the topic, you make another irrelevant statement about Buddha being a theist. Yay.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  What I am trying to say is there is a moral Truth that exists as empathy. All people should acknowledge this Spirit. The bible does, so what's wrong with that? It's people who have usurped this Truth for personal stature and gain who defile and slander what has always been a persons' moral center.

That is clearly not all you are trying to say. You have continously misrepresented the collectives of theism and atheism as religion, despite being disproved multiple times. I don't care if you want to believe there is a moral truth, but you can't keep making statements irrelevant to the discussion.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Speaking objectively and subjectively at once, this moral Truth called empathy is commonly expressed as love others as you would want to be loved. Everyone I have ever met knows Love/empathy. It is not my personal belief. It is a well known fact that we all experience personally. It is not a superstition, nor a religion.

WOW! Continue with the irrelevant dribble, this has made my job so much easier!

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10-07-2013, 04:30 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
@ Childeye:

Yeah...

childeye Wrote:Yes I do agree that the word faith can be seen as a blind trust, as I have indicated before. The point remains that we all trust in something or someone and that trust is a vital component to any good relationship.

In the space of one paragraph, you have moved from the word 'faith' to the words 'blind trust' and then dropped the 'blind'. This process of grammatical gymnastics completely changes your arguement. If you have abandoned faith and embraced trust (which is essentially a risk taken based on available evidence) then I welcome you into the athiest fold with open arms, for you have abandoned faith which will make your life infinitely happier.

childeye Wrote:I'm sorry, I don't follow how you have learned you don't love your wife

That would be because you said:

(08-07-2013 05:04 PM)childeye Wrote:  Atheism is a fundamental contradiction based on the denial of a moral axiom called Love.

Congrats by the way, that made my top 10 'Ignorant generalisations that sound smart' list - you'll have to work harder as I used to read a blog by a guy called Egor, he had to invent a whole new religion in order to support his nonsense.

Anyway, according to your viewpoint, I either don't love my wife or I'm not an athiest - apparently the two things cannot exist concurrently in your world view. I AM an atheist, therefore (according to you) I don't love my wife. She is agnostic, which means she may or may not love me. How have we possibly managed these last 13 years...it must be faith or something...no wait...it's love...she's wonderful. Heart

Don't stop now...you appear to questioning your faith/trust in your chosen flavour of deity...keep going and you'll be on this side of the fence in no time. Smile

"Christianity is like a diet where you eat lots of chocolate cake all week, and then on Sunday you mentally scold yourself and "try again" only to repeat the cycle." - Buddy Christ
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11-07-2013, 04:05 PM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2013 09:29 PM by childeye.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(10-07-2013 04:30 AM)Shannow Wrote:  In the space of one paragraph, you have moved from the word 'faith' to the words 'blind trust' and then dropped the 'blind'. This process of grammatical gymnastics completely changes your arguement. If you have abandoned faith and embraced trust (which is essentially a risk taken based on available evidence) then I welcome you into the athiest fold with open arms, for you have abandoned faith which will make your life infinitely happier.
Actually I started out saying faith is trust in my usage of the term. That was in an earlier post. It was another person that offered the dictionary definition "blind trust" to make their point of how they viewed faith. I was more looking at in the way you describe above to make my point. The word blind put in front of faith is not what I would use to describe my experience applied to the term. Clearly I am a theist however. My faith in God is not blind faith. It is a trusting relationship.

childeye Wrote:I'm sorry, I don't follow how you have learned you don't love your wife

Quote:That would be because you said:

(08-07-2013 05:04 PM)childeye Wrote:  Atheism is a fundamental contradiction based on the denial of a moral axiom called Love.

Congrats by the way, that made my top 10 'Ignorant generalisations that sound smart' list - you'll have to work harder as I used to read a blog by a guy called Egor, he had to invent a whole new religion in order to support his nonsense.

Anyway, according to your viewpoint, I either don't love my wife or I'm not an athiest - apparently the two things cannot exist concurrently in your world view. I AM an atheist, therefore (according to you) I don't love my wife. She is agnostic, which means she may or may not love me. How have we possibly managed these last 13 years...it must be faith or something...no wait...it's love...she's wonderful. Heart

Thanks for the thorough explanation. To be clear, I'm sure you can love your wife and be an Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, etc... Just because you don't believe in God as Love doesn't mean He doesn't exist in your life.
Quote:Don't stop now...you appear to questioning your faith/trust in your chosen flavour of deity...keep going and you'll be on this side of the fence in no time.
I don't ever question my faith/trust in God. I am absolutely sure that Love is real and that Love is good.
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11-07-2013, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2013 09:33 PM by childeye.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(10-07-2013 03:21 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  And another pointless non-sequitur?
We must have some kind of disconnect here. How is it that it does not follow that a definition of religion from a dictionary describing what I see as an atheist perspective is not a religion? I didn't write the definition. Perhaps I don't perceive what it means to be an atheist in your view.

Quote:Dictionaries provide all of the possible definitions of words. They absolutely provide the guidelines for the usage of the word "religion", which you have continuously been using incorrectly. And, if you learned anything from the definitions of religion, you'd know that the worshiping of a deity does not constitute religion.
Wow. We really do have a disconnect. That's the point I've been trying to make to you. That one should not conflate religion with God.

Quote:Not only have all of these definitions provided by this multitude of dictionaries been in total agreement, but you are completely wrong. Every possible interpretation of the word "religion" provide no logical justification to assume that the entirety of atheism is religious. One cannot simply redefine any word to make a point.

Okay I think I see the possible disconnect here. To be clear, I never assumed that the entirety of atheism is religious.
Quote:You certainly do seem to try to be as ignorant as you can be.
I don't understand why anyone would try to be ignorant unless they were ignorant of what it means to be ignorant.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Not at all. I simply know all dictionaries don't always all agree. Besides, when language was invented, I am certain it didn't come from a dictionary. Consequently, dictionaries do not dictate conversation, they are meant to improve communication and understanding. Religions are not all the same. Consequently we should not conflate religion with God and create straw man arguments. Whatever you want to call it, all people have varying perspectives of what is perceived as Truth. It would be hypocritical to not consider how we can be wrong or ignorant in some manner, or simply misunderstanding others when we differ.

Quote:It is a good thing I am not wrong.
It's also a good thing to know when you're wrong so you can learn.

Quote:Excellent, so instead of stating something about the topic, you make another irrelevant statement about Buddha being a theist. Yay.
Pardon my saying, but I was simply responding to your statement.

(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  What I am trying to say is there is a moral Truth that exists as empathy. All people should acknowledge this Spirit. The bible does, so what's wrong with that? It's people who have usurped this Truth for personal stature and gain who defile and slander what has always been a persons' moral center.

Quote:That is clearly not all you are trying to say.
Indeed it is all that matters. I think it is better to create understanding than misunderstanding even as I believe there is one Truth that can live in all mankind.
Quote:You have continously misrepresented the collectives of theism and atheism as religion, despite being disproved multiple times. I don't care if you want to believe there is a moral truth, but you can't keep making statements irrelevant to the discussion.
But this is relevant to the discussion. If atheists hated religion and then became a religion, that would be hypocrisy. Consequently that would be being motivated by belief in a lie.
(08-07-2013 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  Speaking objectively and subjectively at once, this moral Truth called empathy is commonly expressed as love others as you would want to be loved. Everyone I have ever met knows Love/empathy. It is not my personal belief. It is a well known fact that we all experience personally. It is not a superstition, nor a religion.
Quote:WOW! Continue with the irrelevant dribble, this has made my job so much easier!
Again, it is not irrelevant. It is not good that people should be divided by religion. Besides I am just responding to you. If it was irrelevant then why did you say I was not being objective which prompted me to explain how I was being objective?
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