Has atheism become religion?
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15-07-2013, 05:05 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(15-07-2013 01:41 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Except, not at all. The supernatural refers not merely to what we do not understand but what we can not. By its very nature, as it were. A flashlight is entirely explicable by natural means. It is by definition not supernatural.
Semantics. Just because we do not understand does not mean we cannot someday understand, agreed. Ultimately, we are always in some form of ignorance to which this can apply.

Quote:Again you bring up scripture; what is scripture? How do you know what is and what isn't?
I can only attest to what I can perceive. The Scripture I am referring to is the bible. I only mention them because they do not claim God as supernatural.

Quote:Further: as soon as one can see a horizon it is no longer reasonable to believe the Earth is flat. As soon as one can see a lunar eclipse it is no longer reasonable to believe the Earrth is flat. Indeed, as soon as one can travel several hundred kilometres in a measured way it is provably not so.
Sure, but at one time men reasoned the world was flat.

Quote:The supernatural is what cannot be explained by natural means. That is its definition. The cosmos as we know it could not have been initiated by anything we know of within it; nature is the cosmos and therefore in one sense cosmogeny is always supernatural.
Yes in one sense.

(15-07-2013 01:15 PM)childeye Wrote:  You make my point above in some ways better than I do. However I would say that certain facts can be ascertained from the trivial. Computer code is simply 0's and 1's, something is there or not there.

Quote:Computer science proceeds from several foundational axioms. Indeed, so does all of mathematics. It is even provably true that not all true statements are provable! Although - these things are merely theoretical human constructs. They are used as tools to conceptualize the universe around us. At no point in this process has the inclusion of, or even allowance for, the supernatural contributed anything meaningful to that process.
This is like discussing relativity and it's counterpart quantum physics. The fact is one can conceivably digitize forever a line that goes on forever in both directions. This is all God that we are measuring in such terms in my view of theology.

(15-07-2013 01:15 PM)childeye Wrote:  All of theology is essentially simply discerning darkness and Light.

Quote:With the caveat that, at the very least, darkness and light are not being defined in a physical sense. I suppose they are being defined in a spiritual sense?
Yes you are correct. It is a physical term used in metaphor for things we as Christians call the knowledge of God. God being Light or ultimate knowledge in the abstract. Morally speaking and for all practical purposes, right and wrong, ignorance and knowledge.

Quote: In which case, the supernatural existence of a spiritual sense is again presupposed.
Not at all. It is lived everyday whether we recognize it or not. Empathy is the Light of our being even self aware.
Quote:The only theological claim which may be made with a straight face is the existence of a deist prime mover (and that's barely theological as it is).
Empathy does move people as we all know. I can say that with a straight face.
(15-07-2013 01:15 PM)childeye Wrote:  Also, you have concluded that the power that created could not intervene nor direct. I think that is an extreme reach without any basis whatsoever.

Quote:No, I have concluded that based on a very sound basis. That basis is the fact that it has never once been observed or detected to have done so. Ever. In all of history and in all of the known universe, there has never once been a single divine interaction; a single event attributable solely to divine intervention.
The Christ is to what I was referring. The foretold of, true image of God, the New Testament.
Quote:That is an eminently rational, reasonable claim - and it is 100% falsifiable. It could be proven wrong at any time. I wouldn't put any money that way, mind...
Can a person prove a line that goes on forever does not go on forever?
Quote:I believe it is completely reasonable. You seem intelligent. The premise that we experience Life and death for a purpose beyond this universe is not unreasonable.

Quote:The premise is unreasonable, because there is no reason to think so. It is fallacious to presuppose any meaning.
If so, the word meaningless would have no meaning. I cannot conceive of darkness being equated with knowledge, and Light equated with ignorance. For they are not equals by any means. At any rate you mentioned a prime mover which is supernatural in one sense. Consequently only the light is falsifiable since ignorance is only meaningless without the Truth.. In other words there is a meaning behind everything only because there is a God.
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15-07-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
Yeah, it's about that time...

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15-07-2013, 05:23 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
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15-07-2013, 05:31 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Semantics.

And if you recognize the existence of semantics, then you must also recognize that just because you say something is defined in a certain way does not mean that it is.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Just because we do not understand does not mean we cannot someday understand, agreed.

Sure.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  I can only attest to what I can perceive. The Scripture I am referring to is the bible. I only mention them because they do not claim God as supernatural.

Then you are delusional. If you don't understand the difference between natural events and those which admit only of a divine explanation then you're much dumber than I gave you credit for.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Sure, but at one time men reasoned the world was flat.

Yes. And they were wrong. That fact alone does no more than show that people used to be wrong about things. They were wrong about religion as well, as it happens.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  This is like discussing relativity and it's counterpart quantum physics.

It is in no way like those. Those are well-defined and firmly bounded physical theories for describing a purely naturalistic universe. I happen to study them for a living.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  The fact is one can conceivably digitize forever a line that goes on forever in both directions.

One can imagine such a thing. It is not real.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  This is all God that we are measuring in such terms in my view of theology.

So... imaginary? Drinking Beverage

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Yes you are correct. It is a physical term used in metaphor for things we as Christians call the knowledge of God. God being Light or ultimate knowledge in the abstract. Morally speaking and for all practical purposes, right and wrong, ignorance and knowledge.

Hold the phone, boss. We were discussing whether or not a deistic prime mover exists as the universe's creator. What does Christianity have to do with the price of figs?

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Not at all. It is lived everyday whether we recognize it or not. Empathy is the Light of our being even self aware.
...
Empathy does move people as we all know. I can say that with a straight face.

Empathy is not universal - but no need to go over that again. If something - for the sake of argument - is a constant part of the human experience, then it is not affected by human action. So congratulations - your God is irrelevant.

Or rather - I shall be more specific. Whether a person conceptualizes their own moral sense and empathy in terms of your bizarrely-defined God or not has, consequently, absolutely no bearing on their actions. Therefore it is irrelevant.

Empathy is provably beneficial for group survival, as it happens. Which strikes me as a rather more plausible explanation.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  The Christ is to what I was referring. The foretold of, true image of God, the New Testament.

Price check on figs... There is zero evidence for that preposterous and non-sequitor claim.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  If so, the word meaningless would have no meaning.

Don't be facetious. There is no reason to believe any such claim. No, one holy book doesn't count; there are many others, equally attested and fervently believed in, making flatly contradictory claims.

(15-07-2013 05:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  I cannot conceive of darkness being equated with knowledge, and Light equated with ignorance. For they are not equals by any means. At any rate you mentioned a prime mover which is supernatural in one sense. Consequently only the light is falsifiable since ignorance is only meaningless without the Truth.In other words there is a meaning behind everything only because there is a God.

Troll logic word salad. What you cannot conceive of has no bearing on reality.

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15-07-2013, 05:31 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
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15-07-2013, 05:32 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(15-07-2013 05:22 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Yeah, it's about that time...

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And, somehow, I suspect your response to be the more effective of the two...

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16-07-2013, 06:46 AM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2013 09:02 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(15-07-2013 12:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  Please enlighten me as to the god I believe in. Bowing

Tolkien.

(15-07-2013 05:32 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(15-07-2013 05:22 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Yeah, it's about that time...

And, somehow, I suspect your response to be the more effective of the two...

Guy reminds me of one o' them predators. His posts reek of manipulation, but I'm convinced the Bible is fucking evil. Thumbsup

And!

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06-09-2013, 08:08 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(15-07-2013 01:38 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(15-07-2013 01:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's just silly.Drinking Beverage
Yes, I agree. Hence we have a difference in interpreting what the term God means.

You haven't told us what god you believe in.

I don't believe in any supernatural beings or forces, define them how you will.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-11-2013, 06:03 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
I think that the reason atheists can appear religious is often because many of them were part of a religion and it takes time to heal from the damage.

My current project is explaining why many things in this world are irrelevant to me.
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21-11-2013, 08:59 PM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
Atheist churches WTF ? its such a christian concept to begin with ! we can be in touch without following their B.S religious gatherings A.K.A science conventions and teh interwebzz.
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