Has atheism become religion?
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22-11-2013, 03:29 AM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2013 03:33 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(22-11-2013 02:55 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Why would the group have to be comprised of atheists, and reject theists, are you saying there aren't prominent scientists who are theists?

Complete non sequitur. What does the existence of prominent scientists, who also happen to be theists, have to do at all with what we've been discussing?


(22-11-2013 02:55 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Does whatever religion people are, have anything at all to do with the open discussion of facts (as long as it is totally unbiased).

It depends on how much the religion allows freethinking. Discussing the facts about the age of the universe and the Earth simply sin't possible with a person who thinks the fate of their eternal soul rests upon a literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis.


(22-11-2013 02:55 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Don't forget you have as much evidence that a god doesn't exist as you have that a god does.. (lots of evidence that organised religions talk out their behinds though)

That is incorrect. Depending on how one defines a 'god' determines what evidence we can evaluate. If you equate god with the nature of reality (Spinoza's god), then everything is a push and we're squarely in the middle of agnosticism. Remember however that Spinoza's pantheistic god is nothing like the anthropomorphic interventionist creator deity Yahweh. Given the evidence that we would expect to find, and yet consistently fail to, if Yahweh existed; we can safely and confidently conclude that his god concept is nonexistent. Absence of evidence can be evidence of absence.


(22-11-2013 02:55 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  And about getting a voice heard... wtf does an atheist need to get their voice heard for more than joebloggs down the street. Why does a group need to 'represent' the interests of atheists? Support your beliefs? is this not religious intent? Hypocrisy will rule!

Well forgive us if many of the nonreligious see the need in publicly combating the lies spread about us by the ignorant and credulous (and after reading your posts, I imagine you fall into these later categories). If we do not represent ourselves, who will? We are the fastest growing 'faith' in the United States (those listing 'none' on the census), so a sea change is coming. As well the desire or need for a community is simply not unique to the religious, it is part of the human condition; we are after all highly evolved pro-social primates.

It would be hypocrisy if we indoctrinated people with what to think, instead of teaching them critical thinking skill and encouraging them to think for themselves. There are no high holy days or dogmas, no person or place is holier than another. Those of no faith do not constitute a faith in and of themselves, but in a nation as saturated in religiosity as the United States, being irreligious (for whatever reason) is far more culturally significance here than elsewhere. Ironically enough if it wasn't for being treated as social pariahs by the faithful in many parts of the country, nonbelievers wouldn't need specific support groups tailored to their needs. So the rapid emergence and expansion of atheistic groups is a direct result of religious intolerance and exclusion.

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22-11-2013, 04:02 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
Well fuck you EK for leaving nothing to add.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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22-11-2013, 04:29 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
Quote:It would be hypocrisy if we indoctrinated people with what to think, instead of teaching them critical thinking skill and encouraging them to think for themselves.
Every attempt to make critical thinking is thwarted by the quasi religious nature of the groups that form around dogma. That is the point, the idea that atheists should group up to 'convert' theists from their belief is the sort of point of what has been mentioned in the thread. As for lies spread about atheism, I don't think grouping up will help that, it would hinder any attempt to show it is reasoned, the first act of those who are wrong is to get others who are wrong to try and add weight to their flawed argument (i.e. theists) why should those of us who have come to our own conclusions let others make their own minds up. We can defend our position if challenged, but should we be defending the position of others? That is for them to do, as we cannot read the minds of others and find out what conclusion the other came to.

Quote:That is incorrect. Depending on how one defines a 'god' determines what evidence we can evaluate.

How can something be incorrect when you add a dependency, Of course the Yahweh god does not exist as much as Zeus lives on top of mount olympus, or the world is in a big ass tree.. but many keep the idea of the Spinoza type god that may yet exist, Einstein was one, this is something that still cannot be disproven (and a religion in itself I suppose), I am unconvinced.

Quote:Complete non sequitur. What does the existence of prominent scientists, who also happen to be theists, have to do at all with what we've been discussing?
Well the discussion of groups of atheists being the only source of scientific knowledge that otherwise would 'leave holes' in the understanding of christians. Maybe.. or something like this.. grab a chair, read a few posts, play spot the hypocrisy.

May i ask what lies are spread about atheists? are they targeted towards ALL atheists? Who are they said by? and why would you need to stand up to them? (if its from a church leader who preaches lies, would this not be confirmation of his deceitfulness?)
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22-11-2013, 05:04 AM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2013 05:08 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(22-11-2013 04:29 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  
Quote:It would be hypocrisy if we indoctrinated people with what to think, instead of teaching them critical thinking skill and encouraging them to think for themselves.
Every attempt to make critical thinking is thwarted by the quasi religious nature of the groups that form around dogma. That is the point, the idea that atheists should group up to 'convert' theists from their belief is the sort of point of what has been mentioned in the thread. As for lies spread about atheism, I don't think grouping up will help that, it would hinder any attempt to show it is reasoned, the first act of those who are wrong is to get others who are wrong to try and add weight to their flawed argument (i.e. theists) why should those of us who have come to our own conclusions let others make their own minds up. We can defend our position if challenged, but should we be defending the position of others? That is for them to do, as we cannot read the minds of others and find out what conclusion the other came to.

Not a student of history I take it? What group in American history has ever won their equality by lying down and not striving for it? Atheists have been marginalized and sequestered for thousands of years, that strategy of passivity and acquiescence simply does not work. We are the most distrusted, hated, and feared minority in the United States; this is about more than ideological purity, this is realpolitik. Should we be defending others? If they cannot defend themselves, then yes. When the Freedom From Religion Foundation issues a letter to warn a school about the un-Constitutionality of school lead prayer, they're not just protecting the rights of the secular students, they defending the rights of all the students to not have another's faith put upon them.


(22-11-2013 04:29 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  
Quote:That is incorrect. Depending on how one defines a 'god' determines what evidence we can evaluate.
How can something be incorrect when you add a dependency, Of course the Yahweh god does not exist as much as Zeus lives on top of mount olympus, or the world is in a big ass tree.. but many keep the idea of the Spinoza type god that may yet exist, Einstein was one, this is something that still cannot be disproven (and a religion in itself I suppose), I am unconvinced.

Then the onus is upon you to use more specific language, lest others take you to task for it. Blanket generalizations will be scrutinized and taken apart as needed.


(22-11-2013 04:29 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  
Quote:Complete non sequitur. What does the existence of prominent scientists, who also happen to be theists, have to do at all with what we've been discussing?
Well the discussion of groups of atheists being the only source of scientific knowledge that otherwise would 'leave holes' in the understanding of christians. Maybe.. or something like this.. grab a chair, read a few posts, play spot the hypocrisy.

We are by no means the only source of scientific knowledge, but it is certainly not at the top of the agenda to teach accurate cosmology and evolutionary biology in most congregations on Sunday morning.


(22-11-2013 04:29 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  May i ask what lies are spread about atheists? are they targeted towards ALL atheists? Who are they said by? and why would you need to stand up to them? (if its from a church leader who preaches lies, would this not be confirmation of his deceitfulness?)

Really? You've never heard preachers and lay people label all atheists as satanic worshipers? Or that we're all Nazis? Immoral baby-eating heathens? Communists socialist spies? That we are sad, angry, degenerate people? They we're just seekers? That we know god exists, but we're just in rebellion or denial?

What sort of information bubble have you been living in?

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22-11-2013, 05:23 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
Storms a coming, we are Anti Christ ian, we are legion.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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22-11-2013, 06:32 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
Oh I have, but the same people talk about the earth being created in seven days regardless of evidence otherwise.. The words of idiots have no meaning to me.

The US is a joke, your country is shrouded in religious intolerance. I live in the UK, where most of the time, reasonable people (which it seems are in short supply in your country), are pretty tolerant towards others beliefs. Of course we have the exceptions, unreasonable people with significant intolerances, it just seems that from what I see of the US, you have more hardliners and your government is steeped in adherence to 'god' and morals dictated to it by religious leaders.

Here in the UK, we are finally getting to the bottom of it.. draconian laws sometimes have a beneficial impact. (i.e. we have laws to protect us against the misuse of freedom of speech)

Your statement does not change the content of the thread my friend. I responded to what was in the thread, not your personal beliefs.

What seems to be happening is that we are all guilty of stereotyping groups, the discussion tends to make all theists irrational and unwilling to accept facts, and atheists are all rational and driven by scientific understanding, OR vice versa dependent on point of view.
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22-11-2013, 07:02 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(22-11-2013 05:04 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Really? You've never heard preachers and lay people label all atheists as satanic worshipers? Or that we're all Nazis? Immoral baby-eating heathens? Communists socialist spies? That we are sad, angry, degenerate people? They we're just seekers? That we know god exists, but we're just in rebellion or denial?

What sort of information bubble have you been living in?


Yo - find your own bad adjectives. That "satan worshipper" part is my department.
Smartass
*giggle snort*

(had to do it)

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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22-11-2013, 07:17 AM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2013 07:24 AM by sporehux.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(22-11-2013 06:32 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  it just seems that from what I see of the US, you have more hardliners and your government is steeped in adherence to 'god' and morals dictated to it by religious leaders.

OH how far they have fallen from the founding:

"You shall have no other gods before me." VS. Freedom of religion
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" VS. Freedom of Expression
"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" VS. Freedom of speech

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin

"I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution." - George Washington

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams

The trump card for the "Founded as a Christian nation"
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility of Mussulmen (Muslims) …" (Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, Annals of Congress, 5th Congress, written by Joel Barlow in 1796, approved by the U.S. Senate, July 7, 1797, then signed by President John Adams) - See more at: http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldvie...JQoYE.dpuf



- See more at: http://957chatterton.blogspot.com.au/201...IcRmB.dpuf

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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22-11-2013, 08:55 AM
RE: Has atheism become religion?
See.. George W Bush Jnr. Case closed.

If the Treaty of Tripoli is correct, and the United States was not "founded on the Christian religion," then someone forgot to tell the American people. The words of the Treaty of Tripoli can hardly be reconciled with the way that most politicians, clergy, educators, and other writers perceived the United States over the course of the next two hundred years. The idea that the United States is a "Christian nation" has always been central to American identity.

For example, 19th-century history textbooks extolled the virtues of a Christian America by chronicling the way that God orchestrated events in history, including the founding of the British colonies, the American Revolution, or even things as specific as the 1793 yellow fever epidemic in Philadelphia. Emma Willard's History of the United States (1826) describes the "wonderful coincidence of events" that led to the death of Native Americans. Willard's text teaches school children that God eliminated large numbers of Indians in order to pave the way for Christian civilization. She writes: "the pious in heart will delight to recognize and acknowledge a superintending Providence, whose time for exchanging, upon these shores, a savage for a civilized people, had now fully come."

During the Civil War, both the Union and the Confederacy claimed to be Christian nations. In 1858, former Massachusetts Senator Rufus Choate put it this way: "God wills our national life." It was the responsibility of citizens to work hard at keeping this "UNITED, LOVING AND CHRISTIAN AMERICA" together at all costs. The idea that God favored a strong national union of Christians could be found in many of the sermons of the day. Horace Bushnell, a liberal Protestant, wrote that "Civil Government" must be "accepted as a kind of Providential creation." A more conservative Presbyterian clergyman named Albert Barnes added, "Government is to be regarded as a Divine appointment, and as deriving its authority from God."

Read the declaration of Independance, "God" and "creator" is named within the first few parts. "In god we trust" is on your money, and your pledge of allegiance says "one nation under god".

The founding fathers tried, but failed. At least Obama is trying to sort it out again.
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23-11-2013, 03:30 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2013 03:33 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Has atheism become religion?
(22-11-2013 08:55 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  See.. George W Bush Jnr. Case closed.

If the Treaty of Tripoli is correct, and the United States was not "founded on the Christian religion," then someone forgot to tell the American people. The words of the Treaty of Tripoli can hardly be reconciled with the way that most politicians, clergy, educators, and other writers perceived the United States over the course of the next two hundred years. The idea that the United States is a "Christian nation" has always been central to American identity.

For example, 19th-century history textbooks extolled the virtues of a Christian America by chronicling the way that God orchestrated events in history, including the founding of the British colonies, the American Revolution, or even things as specific as the 1793 yellow fever epidemic in Philadelphia. Emma Willard's History of the United States (1826) describes the "wonderful coincidence of events" that led to the death of Native Americans. Willard's text teaches school children that God eliminated large numbers of Indians in order to pave the way for Christian civilization. She writes: "the pious in heart will delight to recognize and acknowledge a superintending Providence, whose time for exchanging, upon these shores, a savage for a civilized people, had now fully come."

During the Civil War, both the Union and the Confederacy claimed to be Christian nations. In 1858, former Massachusetts Senator Rufus Choate put it this way: "God wills our national life." It was the responsibility of citizens to work hard at keeping this "UNITED, LOVING AND CHRISTIAN AMERICA" together at all costs. The idea that God favored a strong national union of Christians could be found in many of the sermons of the day. Horace Bushnell, a liberal Protestant, wrote that "Civil Government" must be "accepted as a kind of Providential creation." A more conservative Presbyterian clergyman named Albert Barnes added, "Government is to be regarded as a Divine appointment, and as deriving its authority from God."

Read the declaration of Independance, "God" and "creator" is named within the first few parts. "In god we trust" is on your money, and your pledge of allegiance says "one nation under god".

The founding fathers tried, but failed. At least Obama is trying to sort it out again.


Wow. You are only slightly less ignorant of American history than one of our average citizens. I can blow your entire weak critique out of the water with one simple observation.

Belief in god is not the same as belief in Christianity, and your argumentation is fundamentally flawed for conflating the two as one.

As to your first point, yes the American people are unfortunately largely unaware of their history. This does not however negate the wording of the Treaty of Tripoli, nor the fact that it was passed without objection in both the House of Representatives and Senate. The concept of being a 'Christian Nation' has not always been an integral part of America, in spite of how much religious conservatives, Republicans, and Fox News would like it to be otherwise. No I would argue that it is a far more recent change that can trace itself back to a number of key events. The earliest would be the Civil War, the next being the Cold War; and finally Roe V. Wade. The first two lead to massive resurgences in evangelism, while the last coalesced all of the divisive and competing Christianities to come under one banner in an effort to fight against legalizing abortion.

Remember also that the United States, unlike your native Great Britain, does not have a state sponsored church. This is a double sided sword, for while freedom of religion is a protection guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, America has always been a nation where faith has been treated like any other commodity on the free market. It gets sold hard, fast, and without regulation; and they are always in competition with one another for their share of the 'market'. What works for soap flakes, works for god.

"Deep within the heart of every evangelist lies the wreck of a car salesman."
-H. L. Mencken


Read the words of our Founding Fathers again. They were Deists and Unitarians, some might even have been atheists. Even up to the Civil War; try learning about President Lincoln. He appears to very much to be a troubled skeptic with a tendency towards deism. It's not enough to quote the man, especially a President who often has to wear one face in public and another in private. Try reading their letters and personal correspondences, the places where they recorded their most candid words.

"The subject presented in the memorial is one upon which I have thought much for weeks past, and I may even say for months. I am approached with the most opposite opinions and advice, and that by religious men, who are equally certain that they represent the Divine will. I am sure that either the one or the other class is mistaken in the belief, and perhaps in some respects both. I hope it will not be irreverent for me to say that if it is probable that God would reveal his will to others, on a point so connected with my duty, it might be supposed he would reveal it directly to me; for, unless I am more deceived in myself than I often am, it is my earnest desire to know the will of Providence in this matter. And if I can learn what it is I will do it! These are not, however, the days of miracles, and I suppose it will be granted that I am not to expect a direct revelation. I must study the plain physical facts of the case, ascertain what is possible and learn what appears to be wise and right. The subject is difficult, and good men do not agree."
-President Lincoln, Reply to Chicago Christians on September 13, 1862 (CWAL V:420)




(22-11-2013 08:55 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Read the declaration of Independance, "God" and "creator" is named within the first few parts. "In god we trust" is on your money, and your pledge of allegiance says "one nation under god".

I have, evidently you didn't get more out of it beyond words themselves. The Declaration does name a god and creator, but says nothing about specific religions nor does it mention Jesus. While it is a historically significant document, it also has no standing in law unlike our Constitution. The First Amendment of the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and freedom from religion, directly contradicting the first of the Ten Commandments in Exodus. "In God We Trust" was added to coinage in 1864 at the closing of the Civil War, and wasn't added onto paper money until 1957 during the McCarthy era 'Red Scare' of the Cold War against the 'godless' communists of the U.S.S.R.. 'Under god' was not in the original Pledge of Allegiance, it was added in 1954. The national motto was changed two years later to 'In God We Trust', once again a reaction to the Cold War. Do you know what the original motto was? Let me enlighten you.

'E Plurbis Unum'
-Out of Many, One


The Founding Fathers succeeding in instilling enlightenment ideals into our founding documents. As a nation we have failed to maintain those ideals.


So feel free to come on over and visit anytime, with your level of ignorance you'd fit right in! Drinking Beverage

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