Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
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13-10-2012, 06:57 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(13-10-2012 06:40 PM)shiranl Wrote:  
(13-10-2012 06:29 PM)I and I Wrote:  So Democracy (electing people) can be just as corrupt.

I don't know which claims I made that you are referring to, I didn't make any claim about your country that isn't common knowledge.

Do you consider your country a democracy?

Say for example for shits and giggles, there was a country that has nuclear weapons but in order to not follow with known laws that most countries abide by, they simply deny that they have them even though everyone knows they do have them. Say in this country there was a guy, I will just pick a random name, Mordechai Vanunu who exposed his countries nuclear weapons plants and then was put in jail for 18 years (11 of them in solitary confinement) simply for saying that his country had nuclear weapons. This was just an example.....but do you think that country is a democracy?



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Democracy isn't equal to having an elections. In Iran they have elections, would you consider that country a democracy? no, because having an elections doesn't mean you're a democracy. Having an elections is just one tiny part of the whole system of democracy.

common knowledge doesn't mean fact. And as we all know, if something is common knowledge, doesn't necesserally mean it is true.

Yes, I consider my country a democracy. And again- I will not let you to turn this thread into backlashing over my country's situation because you can't stand behinde your opinions with valid facts.

The hypothetical example I mentioned, if a country did that would you consider them a democracy?

Democracy doesn't make a country more likely to be free.
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13-10-2012, 07:01 PM
Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
Again, what system of government do you propose as superior to a democratic form?

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13-10-2012, 07:15 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
Democracy is not necessarily required for a free society, nor does it ensure one. But it is an important tool for freedom. We could have a great, free society without elections if we had a socially progressive, benevolent dictator. I mean a dictator that supports a very liberal constitution and never makes changes that are socially or economically regressive. But that has never happened in the history of man. So we need to elect people who we feel we can trust to protect our freedoms, and have them work for limited terms.

Of course it isn't perfect - politicians can lie (they often do), candidates can be corrupted, and if the majority is racist, the elected candidates can form a Nazi dictatorship. But every other form gives power to a handful of men or a single man who can go directly against the wishes of the populace with no system in place to affect changes desired by the populace. In every other system you put your trust and hope in people who have unlimited power. At least with democracy the country can progress if the people desire it. They often do, so it usually works, even if it is painfully slow.

Democracy is corruptible, but it is the most effective way to protect freedoms. It's either that or you hope for a benevolent dictator the likes of which no one has seen before.

Though if you want to be relative, then an authoritarian government could be the best way to protect freedoms if the dictator is Canadian and the country he controls is socially backwards like Saudi Arabia. But I'm speaking about the countries that aren't total crapholes, and anyway, for that to work elsewhere it requires the existence of a much more advanced nation to back up the dictator and prevent him from becoming a repressive monster. Otherwise even a Canadian ruling Arabia would soon turn into Oily McMoneybags...

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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14-10-2012, 02:24 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(13-10-2012 06:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(13-10-2012 06:40 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Democracy isn't equal to having an elections. In Iran they have elections, would you consider that country a democracy? no, because having an elections doesn't mean you're a democracy. Having an elections is just one tiny part of the whole system of democracy.

common knowledge doesn't mean fact. And as we all know, if something is common knowledge, doesn't necesserally mean it is true.

Yes, I consider my country a democracy. And again- I will not let you to turn this thread into backlashing over my country's situation because you can't stand behinde your opinions with valid facts.

The hypothetical example I mentioned, if a country did that would you consider them a democracy?

Democracy doesn't make a country more likely to be free.

It is not a hypothetical example, and please- don't continue and argue it is. Both you and I know it isn't.
You didn't answer any of my arguments for democracy.
The lesson- don't make statements you can't stand behinde.
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14-10-2012, 06:05 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(13-10-2012 04:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  Democracy can just as easily be a dictatorship as any other form of government, many so called democracies are just as likely to be fascistic in their foreign policy as any other political system.

Foreign policy is irrelevant The question in the OP was "democracy EVER synonymous with freedom". Freedom for whom ? The implication is there was never ever anyone "free" in any democracy. Idiot^2, (clone of Bishadi) has a LONG way to go here, listing EVERY society, and showing that every person who ever lived in a democracy has never been free. I^2 is just spewing bullshit generalizations, with no supporting documentation.

(13-10-2012 04:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  Democracy hasn't stopped Israel from possessing nuclear weapons.......,

Irrelevant.

(13-10-2012 04:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  invading other nations, bombing other nations and threatening other nations any more than democracy has stopped any other democracy loving country. The biggest democracies are often the biggest human rights abusers.

Irrelevant. The question was were the people INSIDE the democracy free.

(13-10-2012 04:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  My point is, a democracy is just another form of dictatorship, so is anarchism and for similar reasons. The idea that democracy makes a country automatically a better country to live in or to live by is not historically accurate.

So what exactly, Idiot squared, is your proposed alternative.

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14-10-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(14-10-2012 06:05 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-10-2012 04:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  Democracy can just as easily be a dictatorship as any other form of government, many so called democracies are just as likely to be fascistic in their foreign policy as any other political system.

Foreign policy is irrelevant The question in the OP was "democracy EVER synonymous with freedom". Freedom for whom ? The implication is there was never ever anyone "free" in any democracy. Idiot^2, (clone of Bishadi) has a LONG way to go here, listing EVERY society, and showing that every person who ever lived in a democracy has never been free. I^2 is just spewing bullshit generalizations, with no supporting documentation.

(13-10-2012 04:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  Democracy hasn't stopped Israel from possessing nuclear weapons.......,

Irrelevant.

(13-10-2012 04:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  invading other nations, bombing other nations and threatening other nations any more than democracy has stopped any other democracy loving country. The biggest democracies are often the biggest human rights abusers.

Irrelevant. The question was were the people INSIDE the democracy free.

(13-10-2012 04:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  My point is, a democracy is just another form of dictatorship, so is anarchism and for similar reasons. The idea that democracy makes a country automatically a better country to live in or to live by is not historically accurate.

So what exactly, Idiot squared, is your proposed alternative.

So a country can restrict peoples freedoms by invading them and controlling them and that is a democracy? I agree with you that it is, which why I stated that democracy has nothing to do with freedom.
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14-10-2012, 10:59 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(14-10-2012 02:24 AM)shiranl Wrote:  
(13-10-2012 06:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  The hypothetical example I mentioned, if a country did that would you consider them a democracy?

Democracy doesn't make a country more likely to be free.

It is not a hypothetical example, and please- don't continue and argue it is. Both you and I know it isn't.
You didn't answer any of my arguments for democracy.
The lesson- don't make statements you can't stand behinde.

being able to criticize the government and going on with your life is what a democracy is?

The first known democracy was going to kill their most well known figure for speaking out, Socrates decided to kill himself. You can go back to any so called democracy and find many examples.

And in todays society to speak out and have many people hear you is not possible since the media (here in the U.S.) is owned by a few people which basically toe the government/corporate line and if you don't, then you won't get any air time or you will get very little air time at the most.

I always thought it was funny how people (not you) criticize government ran media yet they support corporate ran media, as if one is so much better than the other.
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14-10-2012, 11:23 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
So, Ix2, what form of government do you propose as superior?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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14-10-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(14-10-2012 10:59 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(14-10-2012 02:24 AM)shiranl Wrote:  It is not a hypothetical example, and please- don't continue and argue it is. Both you and I know it isn't.
You didn't answer any of my arguments for democracy.
The lesson- don't make statements you can't stand behinde.

being able to criticize the government and going on with your life is what a democracy is?

The first known democracy was going to kill their most well known figure for speaking out, Socrates decided to kill himself. You can go back to any so called democracy and find many examples.

And in todays society to speak out and have many people hear you is not possible since the media (here in the U.S.) is owned by a few people which basically toe the government/corporate line and if you don't, then you won't get any air time or you will get very little air time at the most.

I always thought it was funny how people (not you) criticize government ran media yet they support corporate ran media, as if one is so much better than the other.

I can summarize this entire post.

Baseless assertion... Baseless assertion... Baseless assertion! It is so easy!

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14-10-2012, 11:08 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(14-10-2012 11:47 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(14-10-2012 10:59 AM)I and I Wrote:  being able to criticize the government and going on with your life is what a democracy is?

The first known democracy was going to kill their most well known figure for speaking out, Socrates decided to kill himself. You can go back to any so called democracy and find many examples.

And in todays society to speak out and have many people hear you is not possible since the media (here in the U.S.) is owned by a few people which basically toe the government/corporate line and if you don't, then you won't get any air time or you will get very little air time at the most.

I always thought it was funny how people (not you) criticize government ran media yet they support corporate ran media, as if one is so much better than the other.

I can summarize this entire post.

Baseless assertion... Baseless assertion... Baseless assertion! It is so easy!


What did I say that you claim was a baseless assertion?

Name one Democracy past or current that didn't get their wealth at one point or another from mass murder, slavery, imperialism or bullying other countries.

Name one please
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