Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
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16-10-2012, 03:18 AM
Re: RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(14-10-2012 11:08 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(14-10-2012 11:47 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I can summarize this entire post.

Baseless assertion... Baseless assertion... Baseless assertion! It is so easy!


What did I say that you claim was a baseless assertion?

Name one Democracy past or current that didn't get their wealth at one point or another from mass murder, slavery, imperialism or bullying other countries.

Name one please

How many countries can you list that don't guy that category even without any democracy?

There is no connection in a politucal sysyen that is always
Leading to freedom. Not in our history at least.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-10-2012, 05:49 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
I've read most of the thread, not all, but has anyone defined "freedom"? Might make a tighter discussion.

"all [people] are born free but everywhere they are in chains." Jean Jacques Rousseau

Philosiphy 101
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16-10-2012, 07:02 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
I think democracy on a small scale (like your locality) works to a degree, however on a larger scale (the whole country.... and I live in the UK just to clear things up) Democracy has been replaced with Corpocracy.

I think many people think democracy means who you vote into power to represent your country. You vote on the policys proposed however people can be in power for a long time and things can change.

So I would say that your little tick in a box doesnt give you a say on wether we go to war with other countries, it doesnt decide on how money is spent or how much is "borrowed", it doesnt give you a say on where budget cuts should go.... that is all decided for you.

So on the larger scale democracy is a myth in my eyes.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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16-10-2012, 07:03 AM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(16-10-2012 02:14 AM)kim Wrote:  
(14-10-2012 10:59 AM)I and I Wrote:  ... is owned by a few people which basically toe the government/corporate line ...

Tow. ... basically tow the government/corporate line. Toe is a digit on your foot.

With a highly developed mixed market economy and a large welfare state, Denmark ranks as having the world's highest level of income equality, and has the world's seventh highest per capita income. It has frequently ranked as the happiest and least corrupt country in the world. The Kingdom of Denmark is a constitutional monarchy organised in the form of a parliamentary democracy.

Communism is not a form of government. Its a form of central planning economics... just as capitalism is. In USSR, communism was to socialism what capitalism is to democracy in the US. Both capitalism and communism are equally corruptible... it depends what systems are in place(or not) to regulate them.

Capitalism certainly isn't central planning, the instability of the markets is due to lack of planning due to competition. The instability rarely hits the small group of people which privately own the profits from most current corporations.

Communism is a political system and economic system that is designed to make illegal the private ownership of the results of/products of billions of peoples labor. It is a political system in that the working class is not just a receptacle for gossip tabloids and only needs to know how to work to make someone else rich. Communism means a politically conscious society.
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16-10-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(13-10-2012 03:56 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I'm sorry, I missed the form of government that you propose to replace a Republic, which is what the US is rather than a democracy.

Its actually an oligarchy, but who is counting, right?
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18-10-2012, 02:09 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
Majority rule is an unfair system by definition.

If we use 'democracy' in any situation outside of politics we see a grim picture to say the least.

2 Guys are in an alley and decide to steal your wallet, that's a 2 against 1 vote, so you are just in not complaining about being stolen from according to a democratic. In the words of Winston Churchill "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
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19-10-2012, 12:51 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(16-10-2012 07:03 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(16-10-2012 02:14 AM)kim Wrote:  Communism is not a form of government. Its a form of central planning economics... just as capitalism is. Both capitalism and communism are equally corruptible... it depends what systems are in place(or not) to regulate them.

Capitalism certainly isn't central planning, the instability of the markets is due to lack of planning due to competition. The instability rarely hits the small group of people which privately own the profits from most current corporations.

Yes, I was in a hurry and I should have defined capitalism more accurately - sorry. Anyway, the important thing is ... I hate both capitalism and communism equally. I'd rather be a democratic socialist. In fact, though I may live in a constitutional democratic republic, ravingly bent on slash and burn capitalism, I am in a personal sort of way a democratic socialist. So. There you have it. Thanks, now piss off. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-10-2012, 01:14 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
Has Communism ever been synonymous with Freedom?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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19-10-2012, 01:24 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(18-10-2012 02:09 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Majority rule is an unfair system by definition.

If we use 'democracy' in any situation outside of politics we see a grim picture to say the least.

2 Guys are in an alley and decide to steal your wallet, that's a 2 against 1 vote, so you are just in not complaining about being stolen from according to a democratic. In the words of Winston Churchill "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

2 guy are in an alley and decide to steal your wallet? That is not a situation where the victim (minority) will get a vote.

A democracy is not "majority rules" kind of thing ... a democratic system protects the rights of the minority. The 2 guys in the alley... will be caught, tried, and given a bare bottom spanking. That might just be my preference. Dodgy

You didn't let Churchill finish... "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. Democracy is the worst, but it beats all the other ones that have been tried".

And, he was probably quite accurate. That was the middle of the last century. Today, I'm thinking a hybrid of socialism and democracy would help to quell much of the lunacy that rampant capitalism has bludgeoned the US with. Probably just me.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-10-2012, 01:47 PM
RE: Has democracy ever been synonymous with freedom?
(19-10-2012 01:14 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Has Communism ever been synonymous with Freedom?

Kind of... but it kind of depends on who is making it synonymous.

Marx never presented communism to be continual... he felt that pure communism or full communism is a specific stage of historical development. He meant it to be the end result of socialism... in other words, socialism would be a transitional period. Lenin added to Marx's theory the notion of a the proletariat which would secure all political power after the revolution for the working class, for the development of universal class consciousness and worker participation, in a transitional stage between capitalism and socialism.

Trotsky felt that communism was freedom, as long as it was not allowed to stagnate. His form of communism was mixed with... quite interestingly, democracy. Trotsky most importantly declared the need for an international proletarian revolution (rather than socialism in one country) and unwavering support for a true dictatorship of the proletariat based on democratic principles. Pretty snarky that Trotsky... probably why Stalin had him killed. His shit never completely caught on... but his ideas have been greatly entertained in South American countries such as Argentina and Brazil. You know... where all the Nazis went after the war. Smile

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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