Has god given us rational minds and free will not to use?
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27-02-2012, 02:57 PM
RE: Has god given us rational minds and free will not to use?
(27-02-2012 01:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It is a shoddy answer, I'll admit to that; but, the analogy is viable. There is a halo of logic and rules that we can only understand. Whether it's above us or under us doesn't matter. We are all still subjugated to it. We can only understand things as far as our humanity will allow us.

Let's take the dog example again... except, let's look at it from the dog's point of view.

A dog sees his master eating chocolate... and enjoying it. Yet, his master refuses to give his dog any, and in fact, will swat and discipline the dog if it tries to eat any chocolate. If any chocolate is dropped, it is hastily picked up and disposed.

Is this fair or logical in a dog's point of view? It's food to him. Tasty food. And his god won't give him any and will eat it right there in front of him.

Now, what barriers have to be crossed to tell the dog the logic behind the master's decision?

1) Language - being able to hold a conversation with the dog in the master's language. Why the master's language? The dog's language is too primitive to articulate any points.
2) Understanding - even if by a miracle the dog could hold a conversation with his master, the dog would have to be able to cognitively understand the biological processes that make chocolate poisonous to canines
3) Rights - if the dog was able to hold a conversation with the master and understand why the chocolate was harmful, is it the dog's right to eat it? After all, it's the master's... and he can choose how he wants to use it / eat it / give it away / throw it away.

The dog is at the complete mercy of the master... and it's the master's choice on whether or not to give him the chocolate; regardless if the dog understands or can even understand.

Interesting juxtaposition of logical fallacies there, I've never seen it done so well before. Wink

If I may ask ? why use a poor and false analogy in the dog and master scenario why not just use mortal and god for dog and master. ?

You could keep the rest of the wording as it is, it would still make no logical or reasonable sense, put you could still make the same point.

Just curious is all.....

In response to the OP - humans have very little in the way of a rational mind or free will. This really does beg the question for god.

(Sorry not a theist so not sure if I'm allowed to answer)
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27-02-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: Has god given us rational minds and free will not to use?
(27-02-2012 02:57 PM)Sol Wrote:  Interesting juxtaposition of logical fallacies there, I've never seen it done so well before. Wink

If I may ask ? why use a poor and false analogy in the dog and master scenario why not just use mortal and god for dog and master. ?

You could keep the rest of the wording as it is, it would still make no logical or reasonable sense, put you could still make the same point.

Just curious is all.....

In response to the OP - humans have very little in the way of a rational mind or free will. This really does beg the question for god.

(Sorry not a theist so not sure if I'm allowed to answer)

I'll be the first to admit the analogy is flawed; but not useless.

There is no way to make an analogy that deals with infinite and making it fit within the confines of something finite.

I just tried to make it as easy to understand as I could.

/shrug

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27-02-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: Has god given us rational minds and free will not to use?
(27-02-2012 03:02 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'll be the first to admit the analogy is flawed; but not useless.

There is no way to make an analogy that deals with infinite and making it fit within the confines of something finite.

I just tried to make it as easy to understand as I could.

/shrug

You will need to forgive me, I'm new here.....Shy and I wasn't sure whether you were just being patronising, or whether people on the forum are that naive.
My apologies.

Is it possible that something flawed (such as an analogy) could be called useful ?? not sure.

When trying to make the infinite, fit into something finite. I tend to just look at the two words Infinite and finite. I usually decide it cannot be done and leave it at that. (physics.... eh :rolleyesSmile )
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27-02-2012, 03:22 PM
RE: Has god given us rational minds and free will not to use?
(27-02-2012 03:19 PM)Sol Wrote:  When trying to make the infinite, fit into something finite. I tend to just look at the two words Infinite and finite. I usually decide it cannot be done and leave it at that. (physics.... eh :rolleyesSmile )

Then there would be no discussion within this topic if we did that.

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27-02-2012, 03:30 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2012 03:32 PM by Sol.)
RE: Has god given us rational minds and free will not to use?
Indeed...
(27-02-2012 03:22 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(27-02-2012 03:19 PM)Sol Wrote:  When trying to make the infinite, fit into something finite. I tend to just look at the two words Infinite and finite. I usually decide it cannot be done and leave it at that. (physics.... eh :rolleyesSmile )

Then there would be no discussion within this topic if we did that.


Indeed... for it would be silly.
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27-02-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Has god given us rational minds and free will not to use?
(27-02-2012 03:19 PM)Sol Wrote:  You will need to forgive me, I'm new here.....Shy and I wasn't sure whether you were just being patronising, or whether people on the forum are that naive.
My apologies.

We're pretty dumb around here Tongue KC's graciously leading us to the light though.

He occupies a bit of a special place in our hearts - he's the only theist who's actually been bearable and stuck around (there was another but he left Sad ). Actually He-who-must-not-be-named has been a bit more bearable too but every time I say that he goes and pounds some newbie with a rock and I'm left scratching my head again.
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