Hasn't god been disproved?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Hasn't god been disproved?
I know you can't prove or disprove a god 100% but still.
- Theists have the same 25 arguments that have been refuted a million times.
- There is no evidence for the existence of any god, and actually there is a lot of evidence that a god doesn't exist.
- Creationism has been proven false.
- Evolution is a fact.
- Science only points to natural causes for the origins of the universe.
- The bible ( and all holy books ) are full of contridictions, atrocities, history thats wrong, science thats wrong, and all the stories are fake as can be.
- No evidence jesus ever lived and evidence that he didn't.
- Faith is saying that something can't be taken on it's own merrits.
- This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Do you agree or am I wrong about anything I listed above?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like JackDaniels's post
09-04-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
(09-04-2012 12:11 PM)JackDaniels Wrote:  I know you can't prove or disprove a god 100% but still.
- There is no evidence for the existence of any god, and actually there is a lot of evidence that a god doesn't exist.
- Creationism has been proven false.
There is no evidence that god doesn't exist, because there is no clear definition of a god and theists posture that god is metaphysical and hence unobservable. How can you disprove something that is unobservable?
The universe behaves exactly as it would if there were no gods, but that is not proof, theists have the luxury of believing whatever they want without any requirement of proof or evidence. It is a sloppy and inconsistent position especially when you consider how they accept one religion and reject all the others. And even when they accept one religion, it seems they all believe in a slightly different version of god, they just makeup what ever feels right to them.

Whenever anything gets disproven in the bible e.g. Genesis, the believers then shift to, Oh but that wasn't supposed to be literal.
Belief is just sloppy thinking.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Stevil's post
09-04-2012, 01:50 PM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
Even if it was disproved through logic people would still believe in god.

It's the emotional attachment , it's like a friend that they don't want to lose and the fact that they don't want to admit that they're wrong. So they'd find a reason to believe in him again.

How many people use the same old 'just look around you... how is that not god?' argument? God just makes people happy and that concept won't leave people.

WLC even said that even if he felt all his arguments have been defeated (which I believe they have) then he'd tell his followers to keep the faith regardless of the evidence ... I reckon he'd still say he holds a 'reasonable faith'.

And the fear of what could happen after death (i.e hell) is still a reason why people believe in god.

As long as we fear death god will still exist in the minds of many.

Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own understanding!
Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.


Enlightenment is liberating.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2012, 04:42 PM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
Hey, JD.

It hasn't.

1 - You can't prove a false negative (I think that's how Dawkins says it)
2 - You cannot use science to prove the supernatural because science is restricted to what is possible and the supernatural, by definition, is impossible (not meaning it cannot exist but meaning it operates outside of the laws of the natural universe by definition)

So one can say it's disproved, but they'd be lying or in error. One can say they believe there is no God, but that's a belief not a fact. Agnostics refuse to comment either way because of the total lack of evidence.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2012, 07:44 PM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
We have to go with "is it rational to believe".
The atheist position is not to prove that God does not exist, but rather to state that it is irrational to believe that he does.
If you pin down the theist on rational belief you will have your best argument.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2012, 08:05 PM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
(09-04-2012 12:11 PM)JackDaniels Wrote:  I know you can't prove or disprove a god 100% but still.
- Theists have the same 25 arguments that have been refuted a million times.
- There is no evidence for the existence of any god, and actually there is a lot of evidence that a god doesn't exist.
- Creationism has been proven false.
- Evolution is a fact.
- Science only points to natural causes for the origins of the universe.
- The bible ( and all holy books ) are full of contridictions, atrocities, history thats wrong, science thats wrong, and all the stories are fake as can be.
- No evidence jesus ever lived and evidence that he didn't.
- Faith is saying that something can't be taken on it's own merrits.
- This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Do you agree or am I wrong about anything I listed above?
I hate to tear apart of the logic of an atheist, but I feel that it's better that I point them out than an opponent.

- Theists have the same 25 arguments that have been refuted a million times. This commits the "fallacy fallacy ", which assumes that just because an argument is wrong means that you can assume that the position taken by the person with that argument must also be wrong. It's possible that there is a right argument and theists simply haven't discovered it yet.


- There is no evidence for the existence of any god, and actually there is a lot of evidence that a god doesn't exist. I would say there is no good or strong evidence, although plenty has been presented. All of it fails the standards of scientific rigor and logical soundness. Unfortunately, it's not true that there "is a lot of evidence that a god doesn't exist", because it always attacks a specific definition of "god". If a god does exist, it's entirely possible that it does not interact with us or this universe, and such a god would be impossible to verify or disprove. You can only disprove a given definition of "god", and even then it is often given qualities that make it unverifiable or untestable.


- Creationism has been proven false.
- Evolution is a fact.

This is a false dilemma. Creationism can be totally false and yet a god could still exist. Evolution can be true and god could still exist. In fact, there are people like KingsChosen who believe exactly these two things.

- Science only points to natural causes for the origins of the universe.

Science can only point to natural causes because it assumes naturalism . I agree that supernatural things should be rejected because we have no tools for testing them, but that is because I am also a naturalist. If a person accepts the supernatural, then it's not likely that they care about what science has found because it's outside of the realm of science.

- The bible ( and all holy books ) are full of contridictions, atrocities, history thats wrong, science thats wrong, and all the stories are fake as can be.

Agreed. I love pointing these things out. But that only shoots down bible literalness --- it doesn't get us any closer to disproving God, only rebutting the bible as evidence for God.

- No evidence jesus ever lived and evidence that he didn't.
This is just factually untrue. I dare say that quite a few of us here are going through Bart Ehrman's lessons on the historical Jesus thanks to a link that was recently posted here (in fact I'm listening to it right now). You ought to check it out, too.

- Faith is saying that something can't be taken on it's own merits.
Again, I agree. I think Sam Harris had it right when he said "faith is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail". But that has nothing to do with whether God exists or not, simply whether we should be skeptical in the face of lacking evidence (as logic would suggest).


Look, we both agree that there is no convincing evidence that God exists. But there are good reasons why many of us don't subscribe to positive atheism.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Starcrash's post
09-04-2012, 08:54 PM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
Its pretty much al been covered, but yes you postulation is highly flawed and the bias in it is evident.

Aside of the obvious error where there is proof for things that negative. Which you do on multiple occasions. But if your going to state that there is a lot of evidence its good form to cite if not the evidence then a source.

Theres the bias in creation has been proved wrong, and evolution is fact.

Creation has'nt, of course that depends a lot on the creation your talking about. The account in genesis has'nt indeed cant, the postulated fact of creation science have not stood up well or at all to scientific scrutiny, but that stems from the idiotic attempt by creationist to make faith a science which is a)not nessecary, faith requires no proof and b)ill concieved or perhaps ill executed is better, in that they just make shit up and attach sciency sound words to it. That just wont wont fly in scientific circles. Ive never understood why they would even attempt to try, its like having an unasailable fortress and leaving it and walking into the enemy camp after dousing themselves in petrol and handing out matches. Perhaps it stems from the inability at the core of most religions to acknowledge dissent.

Evolution likewise isnt fact its a theory with a great deal of supporting evidence.

As for the bible and its list of faults contradictions, science on the face of it has many things that can appear contradictory without cheating and dipping into quatum science which I really dont understand, but is seriously whack a doodle. There are many things in science that can appear contary, light is both a particle and a wave at the same time, or behaves as a particle and a wave. Dark matter is another, we cant see it, we cant measure it, the only way we can currently "detect" it is by the what should be there and isnt. Personally, dark matter is a real thorn in my side as when you get down it we cant, see, measure, or even postulate what it is, but it must be there or all the maths doesnt work - thats extremely tenious ground for science to occupy. Inferring existence to an unobserveable phenoma to keep your mathematical models working seems like a step to far to me, but Im not scientist and from my lay understanding theres more to it than that, but still troubling.

But then in science the unknown is not a threat or a fault it is in fact the object of enquiry, almost no scientist would claim we have all the answers and given our knowledge is incomplete it is unsuprising we cant answer all the question. This is sciences strength and religions weakeness when it trys to compete in the scientific arena.

It is on this point that many scientists and many more lay supporters of science drop the ball imo and turn toward certainly and start throwning around, fact, truth and what have you. These have no place in science the best science can ever say is the model of the observable data has higher and higher probababilty of not being false. Again it is this intellectual honesty that is basis of science and a rational world view and in its own but different way is its as strong as faith.

Most profoundly, despite all science has achieved, not one jot of it has or can disprove God, the question itself is of such a nature just isnt the tool to examine it. But that is what the arts are for.

Legal Disclaimer: I am right, I reserve the right to be wrong without notice, opinions may change, your statutory rights are not affected, opinions expressed are not my own and are an approximation for the sake of communication.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-04-2012, 09:53 PM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
(09-04-2012 08:05 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(09-04-2012 12:11 PM)JackDaniels Wrote:  I know you can't prove or disprove a god 100% but still.
- Theists have the same 25 arguments that have been refuted a million times.
- There is no evidence for the existence of any god, and actually there is a lot of evidence that a god doesn't exist.
- Creationism has been proven false.
- Evolution is a fact.
- Science only points to natural causes for the origins of the universe.
- The bible ( and all holy books ) are full of contridictions, atrocities, history thats wrong, science thats wrong, and all the stories are fake as can be.
- No evidence jesus ever lived and evidence that he didn't.
- Faith is saying that something can't be taken on it's own merrits.
- This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Do you agree or am I wrong about anything I listed above?
I hate to tear apart of the logic of an atheist, but I feel that it's better that I point them out than an opponent.

- Theists have the same 25 arguments that have been refuted a million times. This commits the "fallacy fallacy ", which assumes that just because an argument is wrong means that you can assume that the position taken by the person with that argument must also be wrong. It's possible that there is a right argument and theists simply haven't discovered it yet.


- There is no evidence for the existence of any god, and actually there is a lot of evidence that a god doesn't exist. I would say there is no good or strong evidence, although plenty has been presented. All of it fails the standards of scientific rigor and logical soundness. Unfortunately, it's not true that there "is a lot of evidence that a god doesn't exist", because it always attacks a specific definition of "god". If a god does exist, it's entirely possible that it does not interact with us or this universe, and such a god would be impossible to verify or disprove. You can only disprove a given definition of "god", and even then it is often given qualities that make it unverifiable or untestable.


- Creationism has been proven false.
- Evolution is a fact.

This is a false dilemma. Creationism can be totally false and yet a god could still exist. Evolution can be true and god could still exist. In fact, there are people like KingsChosen who believe exactly these two things.

- Science only points to natural causes for the origins of the universe.

Science can only point to natural causes because it assumes naturalism . I agree that supernatural things should be rejected because we have no tools for testing them, but that is because I am also a naturalist. If a person accepts the supernatural, then it's not likely that they care about what science has found because it's outside of the realm of science.

- The bible ( and all holy books ) are full of contridictions, atrocities, history thats wrong, science thats wrong, and all the stories are fake as can be.

Agreed. I love pointing these things out. But that only shoots down bible literalness --- it doesn't get us any closer to disproving God, only rebutting the bible as evidence for God.

- No evidence jesus ever lived and evidence that he didn't.
This is just factually untrue. I dare say that quite a few of us here are going through Bart Ehrman's lessons on the historical Jesus thanks to a link that was recently posted here (in fact I'm listening to it right now). You ought to check it out, too.

- Faith is saying that something can't be taken on it's own merits.
Again, I agree. I think Sam Harris had it right when he said "faith is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail". But that has nothing to do with whether God exists or not, simply whether we should be skeptical in the face of lacking evidence (as logic would suggest).


Look, we both agree that there is no convincing evidence that God exists. But there are good reasons why many of us don't subscribe to positive atheism.
Enjoyed your post. Well said. I wonder if you think there is no application for the word "faith" apart from religious contexts. I'm happily atheist but it seems appropriate to talk of faith in things for which objective proof is scarce or all together lacking. "Best guess" or "hunch" doesn't seem to be an adequate descriptor for things like belief in love, other minds or your own creative self worth. These and other such notions seem to have a wished-for aspect as well as reasonableness going for them. Faith apart from religious faith seems sensible enough to me. What do you think?

[Image: rSJ3y4]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes whateverist's post
09-04-2012, 11:47 PM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
Yes and No.

It is impossible to prove that a "god" as in all powerful being does not exist. It would be very easy to prove such a god does exist

However most Theists have a preset definition of "god". For example I would point out to Christians that the idea of a "perfect being needing worship is a logical contradiction. I would also point out where the burden of proof lies and continue to point out logical fallacies as they crop up.

So yes the Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, etc gods have large logical fallacies that make their existence a non possibility.

So yes most gods have been shown to be logically false but the possibility of "god" is not something one can disprove.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Godless's post
10-04-2012, 12:40 AM
RE: Hasn't god been disproved?
I would say that it's been proven that 'God is incredibly unlikely.'

Forget Jesus. Stars died so you could live.-Lawrence Krauss

For god loved the world so much he tortured his only begotten son, gave him a 3 day nap only to wake up in ultimate awesomeness and called it a sacrifice.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Atheist Chiefs fan!'s post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: