Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
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25-11-2015, 09:12 PM
Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
Note: I will use a liberal source as I don't want to have to explain what poisoning the well is.

From Raw Story:

Quote:Witnesses say the gunmen were trying to record demonstrators’ faces on cell phone video shortly before opening fire, and the two groups argued.

Then a group of protesters charged at the men and demanded they remove their masks, but witnesses said the men shouted back, “f*ck no,” and continued recording cell phone video.

A demonstrator, who spoke on camera with a mask covering his face, said one of the men was carrying a Black Lives Matter sign.

The witness said a demonstrator came out of the crowd and punched one of the white men, and another man stepped back and reached toward his waistband.

“I was like, he’s got a gun, he’s got a gun,” said a second witness, who also covered his face on camera.

The demonstrators said the three men then walked away from the crowd and through a gate, where another protester punched one of the men, and the three men ran off with several protesters behind.

“I was like, they’ve got a gun — don’t follow them,” the second witness said. “Don’t chase them — they’re reaching for a gun.”

The witnesses said the men then stopped in an area where no cameras were present, turned around and opened fire on the six protesters who had been chasing them.

So far we can piece together from these facts that:
(Group S: Those that shot)
(Group P: BLM Protestors)
>Group S was filming on public property.
>A confrontation between Group S and P occurred.
>Group P attacked group S by punching them.
>Group S attempted to leave.
>Group S was attacked again by a punch.
>Group S then attempted to retreat to safety.
>Group P pursued Group S as they retreated.
>Having met the duty to retreat, being faced with a disparity of force, and previously confronted with violence Group S used engaged in the use of a firearm.

NOTE: There is no link between the people make the video threats and the suspects in this case.


So self defense or hate crime?
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25-11-2015, 10:21 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(25-11-2015 09:12 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  Note: I will use a liberal source as I don't want to have to explain what poisoning the well is.

From Raw Story:

Quote:Witnesses say the gunmen were trying to record demonstrators’ faces on cell phone video shortly before opening fire, and the two groups argued.

Then a group of protesters charged at the men and demanded they remove their masks, but witnesses said the men shouted back, “f*ck no,” and continued recording cell phone video.

A demonstrator, who spoke on camera with a mask covering his face, said one of the men was carrying a Black Lives Matter sign.

The witness said a demonstrator came out of the crowd and punched one of the white men, and another man stepped back and reached toward his waistband.

“I was like, he’s got a gun, he’s got a gun,” said a second witness, who also covered his face on camera.

The demonstrators said the three men then walked away from the crowd and through a gate, where another protester punched one of the men, and the three men ran off with several protesters behind.

“I was like, they’ve got a gun — don’t follow them,” the second witness said. “Don’t chase them — they’re reaching for a gun.”

The witnesses said the men then stopped in an area where no cameras were present, turned around and opened fire on the six protesters who had been chasing them.

So far we can piece together from these facts that:
(Group S: Those that shot)
(Group P: BLM Protestors)
>Group S was filming on public property.
>A confrontation between Group S and P occurred.
>Group P attacked group S by punching them.
>Group S attempted to leave.
>Group S was attacked again by a punch.
>Group S then attempted to retreat to safety.
>Group P pursued Group S as they retreated.
>Having met the duty to retreat, being faced with a disparity of force, and previously confronted with violence Group S used engaged in the use of a firearm.

NOTE: There is no link between the people make the video threats and the suspects in this case.


So self defense or hate crime?

Arguably self-defense, but only if they had no real chance to continue their retreat.

In any case, the protesters were entirely in the wrong.

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25-11-2015, 11:10 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
Hate crime. They may have run off, but they were there to stir up trouble, and armed. Hate crime and cowards.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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25-11-2015, 11:44 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
Did they deliberately provoke the group with the intention of using the self-defense plea? i.e. did they plan to kill, and was that the reason that they recorded the protestors? If that's the case then it's definitely a murder case and a hate crime. Bit of a tough one to call though.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-11-2015, 05:18 AM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
Without even looking at the evidence ------

It could be both.....

Anything is possible when you put two opposing groups of idiots into a small area....

It's like if you were to mix powdered plutonium with a mixture of methyl ethyl ketone and chlorine. What will happen?? Fucked if I know -- but I'm willing to bet it won't be good....

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26-11-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(26-11-2015 05:18 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Without even looking at the evidence ------

It could be both.....

In which case it's self defense. If the vote isn't unanimous for guilty, it's not guilty.
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26-11-2015, 12:18 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
The white guys had an obligation to retreat under Minnesota law if retreat was possible. If they couldn't retreat any farther, then it's a valid self defense claim. If they could retreat farther, then self-defense isn't available to them. In any event, the protesters were idiots for chasing the white supremacists. How stupid do you have to be to continue pursuing someone when you believe that he is reaching for a gun? White supremacists are always idiots. Fuck 'em all.
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26-11-2015, 12:39 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(25-11-2015 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  Did they deliberately provoke the group with the intention of using the self-defense plea? i.e. did they plan to kill, and was that the reason that they recorded the protestors? If that's the case then it's definitely a murder case and a hate crime. Bit of a tough one to call though.

The question is how and what is considered provocation. Is that from the mere acct of recording someone?
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26-11-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(26-11-2015 12:39 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  
(25-11-2015 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  Did they deliberately provoke the group with the intention of using the self-defense plea? i.e. did they plan to kill, and was that the reason that they recorded the protestors? If that's the case then it's definitely a murder case and a hate crime. Bit of a tough one to call though.

The question is how and what is considered provocation. Is that from the mere acct of recording someone?

No, for me the question is did they intend to kill someone before they started anything. If they did, it's not self-defence.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-11-2015, 10:12 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
Doesn't seem like self-defense to me.
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