Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
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27-11-2015, 08:14 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(26-11-2015 12:39 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  
(25-11-2015 11:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  Did they deliberately provoke the group with the intention of using the self-defense plea? i.e. did they plan to kill, and was that the reason that they recorded the protestors? If that's the case then it's definitely a murder case and a hate crime. Bit of a tough one to call though.

The question is how and what is considered provocation. Is that from the mere acct of recording someone?

The protesters were in public with no expectation of privacy. Them being upset about being recorded in public and attacking those recording puts them in the wrong.

They started the trouble. Drinking Beverage

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27-11-2015, 08:15 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(26-11-2015 01:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(26-11-2015 12:39 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  The question is how and what is considered provocation. Is that from the mere acct of recording someone?

No, for me the question is did they intend to kill someone before they started anything. If they did, it's not self-defence.

You'd have a hard time proving intent. Drinking Beverage

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28-11-2015, 02:43 AM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(27-11-2015 08:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-11-2015 01:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  No, for me the question is did they intend to kill someone before they started anything. If they did, it's not self-defence.

You'd have a hard time proving intent. Drinking Beverage

Yup Confused But if I was a dickhead who wanted to murder someone and get away with it, this is quite a nice method. It's beautifully simple. Hide your gun, go out and find some bunch of violent rowdies, get them to chase you and then shoot them. Self defence. And... I guess it *is* self defence. I mean, if they didn't shoot them I doubt the aforementioned rowdies were gonna just shake hands and have a chat. But if that *is* the way they thought and planned it then it seems... wrong...

There was some case previously IIRC where some guy basically baited people into his house and then shot them as intruders and claimed self defense, and he didn't get off. I think of it as similar to this.

And it's bad to speculate 'cos I haven't even watched the video - I don't wanna. As you say, proving intent would be extremely difficult. I'd like it if this angle were investigated during the trial though.

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28-11-2015, 06:34 AM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(27-11-2015 08:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-11-2015 01:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  No, for me the question is did they intend to kill someone before they started anything. If they did, it's not self-defence.

You'd have a hard time proving intent. Drinking Beverage

Proving intent is a whole lot easier when the shooters recorded their plans and uploaded them on YouTube and Facebook.

Their actions were apparently premeditated. You can't create the conditions where you need to defend yourself and claim a legal defense of self defense. It doesn't work that way.

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28-11-2015, 04:49 PM
RE: Hate Crime or Self Defense? You Decide.
(27-11-2015 08:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  The protesters were in public with no expectation of privacy. Them being upset about being recorded in public and attacking those recording puts them in the wrong.

They started the trouble. Drinking Beverage

Weren't they wearing masks like jihadists do?

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