Hate E-mails With Richard Dawkins
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03-09-2013, 08:50 AM
RE: Hate E-mails With Richard Dawkins
Dawkins is great here; my favorite comment is the one about him getting hit by a church van, at 3:16.Big Grin
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03-09-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: Hate E-mails With Richard Dawkins
(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  And what does the word "internalised" mean? If you mean "internalised," then are you suggesting there are people who have no "internalised conception of race"?

It's a semantic argument anyway; shouldn't you just look it up? Tongue

But no, I mean a difference someone thinks is significant but isn't (ie skin colour). Let us say that race does not exist (lest you rush to misinterpret me, I agree with this; let us make that supposition explicit for the sake of argument):
It does not follow that individuals cannot believe that it does. Therefore it does not follow that individuals cannot act on those beliefs in a prejudiced or discriminatory way. Therefore racism exists independent of the [in]validity of any 'race' construct.

I wouldn't have imagined that a controversial assertion.

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Tell me, who out there is completely oblivious to the physical differences that characterize traditional racial categories?

Strawman says what?

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Racism is a discriminatory social practice that attempts to legitimize the domination of certain ethnic groups.

Absolutely. Are Muslims an ethnic group?

Here I reiterate:
(03-09-2013 07:51 AM)cjlr Wrote:  [Racism] doesn't just mean 'prejudiced'. It doesn't even mean 'prejudiced against a group of people'. It means 'prejudice against a group of people due to racial criteria'; be they scientifically valid distinctions or not (they're not).

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  The most common form of racism is European discrimination against non-European peoples, ...

Racism is hardly a unique phenomenon. The difference is that historically European (and different parts of Europe at a time) people had greater opportunity to act on their prejudices. Yes. And?

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  ...or precisely the activity in which Dawkins engages. It doesn't matter if it's embedded within a broader criticism.

Dawkins is European, yes. He has criticized other people who are not European, yes. He has also criticized plenty of Europeans.

Is his criticism invalid due to historical context? That hardly seems a fair judgement. He's perfectly entitled to criticize things he doesn't like. It either has merit or it doesn't. Some of what he says doesn't. Wouldn't that discussion be more fun than calling me a naively sophomoric?

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  The fact that groups of people are discriminated against and in some cases even killed for looking like Muslims is proof positive that Islamaphobia is racism.

Your argument seems to be:
Premise: Racism is ethnic discrimination
Premise: some people conflate Muslim (religious) identity with Arab (ethnic) identity
Premise: Some people act in a prejudiced or discriminatory way towards those who they perceive as Muslims
Corollary: Those two groups have some intersection
Lemma: Some people act in a prejudiced or discriminatory way towards those who they perceive as Arabs due to their beliefs regarding Islam
Conclusion: Those people are racist.

Sure. I'll agree. Provided the corollary is satisfied such actions are indeed racist.

You then go on to insinuate that:
Premise: Dawkins has criticized Muslims
Lemma: Therefore Dawkins is prejudiced against Muslims
Lemma: Therefore Dawkins is prejudiced against Arabs
Conclusion: Therefore Dawkins is racist.

This does not follow.

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Try to wriggle around the semantics all you want, but you're sophomoric attempts to argue your way out of this only further betray your naivety.

Thumbsup

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  20% is not a small minority.

Okay. That's quite plainly a matter of context and opinion. Relevance to Dawkins?

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I have read few stories about people murdering random white people because they look Christian.

Okay. That's bad. Relevance to Dawkins?

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Have you ever seen how frequently Sikhs get stopped at US border crossings because border patrol officers think they look Muslim?

Okay. That's bad. Relevance to Dawkins?

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Absolutely. Are you denying the fact that many, many people throughout the Western world conflate "Muslim" and "Arab"?

Okay. That's bad. Relevance to Dawkins?

(03-09-2013 08:45 AM)maklelan Wrote:  I disagree emphatically.

Okay. Relevance to Dawkins? (Cool I kid, I kid)

... this is my signature!
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03-09-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Hate E-mails With Richard Dawkins
I love this video, but it's a little too early to post it. I always get the proper X-mas feeling from this video, and it's not even winter yet.

[Image: 9f6.gif]
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