Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
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30-10-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 08:23 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Does anybody know why on an atheist forum people would get so defensive if you say bad (and true) things about a religious state, like Israel? I read an opinion poll once taken in Israel, and half of Israeli's, including many very religious Jews, were strongly opposed to Zionism (ie a religious state). And here in the US, there are large protests of jews marching against Zionism, and protesting the treatment of Iran. Yet the US media doesn't cover it, so Americans imo think that Jews are all in favor of a religious state, and if an American points out the same exact facts about Zionism that these Jews point out, he's branded anti-Semitic. It should also be noted that Ahmadinejad has never condemned Israel or Jews, and Iran has orthodox Jews in Parliament and allied with the President. He condemns Zionism and the enslavement of the Palestinians. The rest of the world sees this as a reasonable issue. Americans think he's a lunatic for it.

Jews against Zionism in New York:
[Image: DSC00833.jpg]

[Image: ahmadinejad_afp.jpg]

[Image: Ahmadinejad.met.with.a.group.of.Jewish.rabbis.jpg]

I have no problem when people criticize Israel but trying to keep it in the realm of fact is nice. Oh and Ahmadinejad is on record as a holocaust denier so probably not the go to person for a factual critic of Israeli policy.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-10-2013, 09:32 PM
Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 08:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 08:23 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Does anybody know why on an atheist forum people would get so defensive if you say bad (and true) things about a religious state, like Israel? I read an opinion poll once taken in Israel, and half of Israeli's, including many very religious Jews, were strongly opposed to Zionism (ie a religious state). And here in the US, there are large protests of jews marching against Zionism, and protesting the treatment of Iran. Yet the US media doesn't cover it, so Americans imo think that Jews are all in favor of a religious state, and if an American points out the same exact facts about Zionism that these Jews point out, he's branded anti-Semitic. It should also be noted that Ahmadinejad has never condemned Israel or Jews, and Iran has orthodox Jews in Parliament and allied with the President. He condemns Zionism and the enslavement of the Palestinians. The rest of the world sees this as a reasonable issue. Americans think he's a lunatic for it.

Jews against Zionism in New York:
[Image: DSC00833.jpg]

[Image: ahmadinejad_afp.jpg]

[Image: Ahmadinejad.met.with.a.group.of.Jewish.rabbis.jpg]

I have no problem when people criticize Israel but trying to keep it in the realm of fact is nice. Oh and Ahmadinejad is on record as a holocaust denier so probably not the go to person for a factual critic of Israeli policy.

You said you deal with facts. So far you purposely ignored the fact that Israel reestablished military ties with South Africa in the 70's and continued til the end of the apartheid South African government. Why would you ignore this fact?

Ahmadinejad in 2007 states that he doesn't deny the holocaust. http://m.nydailynews.com/1.243062#bmb=1

Another point, why is criticism of Israel followed by made up accusations against Iran?
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30-10-2013, 09:32 PM
Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
Former Iranian president at that.
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30-10-2013, 09:35 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 08:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Oh and Ahmadinejad is on record as a holocaust denier so probably not the go to person for a factual critic of Israeli policy.

Here's an interview with him on the subject: Youtube

To be honest, he speaks rationally and factually. He's not denying that the Germans killed millions of Jews, his complaint is (a) that the Palestinians have to pay the price for what the Germans did, (b) that it's the one historical event that's too taboo to be studied and commented on and hard to get the facts, © and that the genocide of other peoples is not considered as horrific.

You're drinking the cool-aid. You should listen to the actual interviews with the realtime English translation provided by his translator. The mainstream media always misquotes him. For example, the greatest attack against Ahmadinejad is for saying that "Israel should be wiped off the map". But.... He never actually said it. Everybody knows it was a mistranslation. He actually said "Zionism should disappear from the pages of time", and when later asked "How? By Iran?", he replied that it should be done by having democratic elections and allowing the Palestinians to vote. Yet this it the "extreme" position that Americans condemn him for. I've heard a lot more extreme and dishonest statements from American Presidents.

Here's a challenge: Take the 5 minutes to watch that interview about the Holocaust. Then tell me what SPECIFICALLY he said that is not completely accurate?
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30-10-2013, 09:42 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 09:35 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 08:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Oh and Ahmadinejad is on record as a holocaust denier so probably not the go to person for a factual critic of Israeli policy.

Here's an interview with him on the subject: Youtube

To be honest, he speaks rationally and factually. He's not denying that the Germans killed millions of Jews, his complaint is (a) that the Palestinians have to pay the price for what the Germans did, (b) that it's the one historical event that's too taboo to be studied and commented on and hard to get the facts, © and that the genocide of other peoples is not considered as horrific.

You're drinking the cool-aid. You should listen to the actual interviews with the realtime English translation provided by his translator. The mainstream media always misquotes him. For example, the greatest attack against Ahmadinejad is for saying that "Israel should be wiped off the map". But.... He never actually said it. Everybody knows it was a mistranslation. He actually said "Zionism should disappear from the pages of time", and when later asked "How? By Iran?", he replied that it should be done by having democratic elections and allowing the Palestinians to vote. Yet this it the "extreme" position that Americans condemn him for. I've heard a lot more extreme and dishonest statements from American Presidents.

Here's a challenge: Take the 5 minutes to watch that interview about the Holocaust. Then tell me what SPECIFICALLY he said that is not completely accurate?







I went ahead and embedded the video you linked earlier.

Maybe the mouthpiece for a Muslim theocracy is not the best choice for a champion for this. Given the choice between living in Israel or Iran which would you choose?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-10-2013, 09:53 PM
Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 09:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 09:35 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Here's an interview with him on the subject: Youtube

To be honest, he speaks rationally and factually. He's not denying that the Germans killed millions of Jews, his complaint is (a) that the Palestinians have to pay the price for what the Germans did, (b) that it's the one historical event that's too taboo to be studied and commented on and hard to get the facts, © and that the genocide of other peoples is not considered as horrific.

You're drinking the cool-aid. You should listen to the actual interviews with the realtime English translation provided by his translator. The mainstream media always misquotes him. For example, the greatest attack against Ahmadinejad is for saying that "Israel should be wiped off the map". But.... He never actually said it. Everybody knows it was a mistranslation. He actually said "Zionism should disappear from the pages of time", and when later asked "How? By Iran?", he replied that it should be done by having democratic elections and allowing the Palestinians to vote. Yet this it the "extreme" position that Americans condemn him for. I've heard a lot more extreme and dishonest statements from American Presidents.

Here's a challenge: Take the 5 minutes to watch that interview about the Holocaust. Then tell me what SPECIFICALLY he said that is not completely accurate?







I went ahead and embedded the video you linked earlier.

Maybe the mouthpiece for a Muslim theocracy is not the best choice for a champion for this. Given the choice between living in Israel or Iran which would you choose?

What does Iran or it's former president have to do with the fascist oppressive theocratic government of Israel?
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30-10-2013, 10:09 PM
Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
Why is an atheist defending a theocratic oppressive government? First, revenent stated that Israel in the 60's supported UN resolutions on South Africa. But he purposely left out the fact that military ties were resumed in the 70's. Leaving this out gives a false version of events and paints Israel in a better light. Why would an atheist do this? Why would an atheist defend and purposely make a religious government seem better than it is?
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30-10-2013, 10:43 PM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2013 10:46 PM by frankksj.)
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
I wrote: Here's a challenge: Take the 5 minutes to watch that interview about the Holocaust. Then tell me what SPECIFICALLY he said that is not completely accurate?

(30-10-2013 09:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Maybe the mouthpiece for a Muslim theocracy is not the best choice for a champion for this.

Naturally, you run the challenge and don't answer my questions. I'll take that to mean that you cannot find anything in that interview that is not rational and accurate, but don't want to admit it.

The only rebuttal you did was to post a link to some "Jewish News" site (really unbiased there), where all they do is paraphrase everything he says without any quotes. Look, if CNN can't be trusted to paraphrase what he says, surely "Jewish News" cannot. It shows the difference in the way we think. You hear something on the internet that's a paraphrase, and assume it MUST be true. Whereas I insist on going straight to the source and using an official translation.

So, again, I'll repeat the challenge, if you listen to what he REALLY said, can you find anything that he said that is irrational or unreasonable?

Quote:Given the choice between living in Israel or Iran which would you choose?

Tough call. I've traveled all around the Middle East. Was just there a couple months ago. Iranians (Persians) and Arabs have always been unquestionably warmer and more welcoming to me. I remember going through the desert in Jordon to visit Petra and running across some locals in an off-the-beaten path. They invited me into their home, gave me their hot sweet tea, and were very warm and inviting. Same thing in Egypt. I hired a local translator/guide to go with me, and when I asked if I should offer them some money, he insisted they would be insulted. They invited me into their homes only to be hospitable, and not get anything but a cultural exchange with someone from far away.

And, when I've toured the historic sites, as an amateur photographer, I love taking pictures of the kids. And they are SO happy and joyful and open. I've never had that in Israel (or any Western country for that matter). Tehran is also a much richer city in every sense than Tel Aviv. Not only does it have 14 times as many people, in terms of museums, culture, history, Iran is way better. I would say Iran hands-down if the government behaved like the average people on the street do. Unfortunately, Iran's economy is terrible now, but that's not their fault--the US has blockaded them and they can't trade or sell their oil because they're trying to sell it non-US dollars. Also, just like in the US, their government is out of control. They execute people over non-sense. I've found that as long as you're discrete, you can get away with anything anywhere in the Middle East. Even in Saudi Arabia they have underground strip clubs and night clubs.

Bottom line is that for a place to visit for a short trip and experience culture and nice people, I'd pick Iran. For a place to live permanently, I wouldn't pick either one, but if I was forced to, I'd have to pick Israel until Iran's government becomes more rational.
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30-10-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 10:43 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I wrote: Here's a challenge: Take the 5 minutes to watch that interview about the Holocaust. Then tell me what SPECIFICALLY he said that is not completely accurate?

(30-10-2013 09:42 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Maybe the mouthpiece for a Muslim theocracy is not the best choice for a champion for this.

Naturally, you run the challenge and don't answer my questions. I'll take that to mean that you cannot find anything in that interview that is not rational and accurate, but don't want to admit it.

The only rebuttal you did was to post a link to some "Jewish News" site (really unbiased there), where all they do is paraphrase everything he says without any quotes. Look, if CNN can't be trusted to paraphrase what he says, surely "Jewish News" cannot. It shows the difference in the way we think. You hear something on the internet that's a paraphrase, and assume it MUST be true. Whereas I insist on going straight to the source and using an official translation.

So, again, I'll repeat the challenge, if you listen to what he REALLY said, can you find anything that he said that is irrational or unreasonable?

Quote:Given the choice between living in Israel or Iran which would you choose?

Tough call. I've traveled all around the Middle East. Was just there a couple months ago. Iranians (Persians) and Arabs have always been unquestionably warmer and more welcoming to me. I remember going through the desert in Jordon to visit Petra and running across some locals in an off-the-beaten path. They invited me into their home, gave me their hot sweet tea, and were very warm and inviting. Same thing in Egypt. I hired a local translator/guide to go with me, and when I asked if I should offer them some money, he insisted they would be insulted. They invited me into their homes only to be hospitable, and not get anything but a cultural exchange with someone from far away.

And, when I've toured the historic sites, as an amateur photographer, I love taking pictures of the kids. And they are SO happy and joyful and open. I've never had that in Israel (or any Western country for that matter). Tehran is also a much richer city in every sense than Tel Aviv. Not only does it have 14 times as many people, in terms of museums, culture, history, Iran is way better. I would say Iran hands-down if the government behaved like the average people on the street do. Unfortunately, Iran's economy is terrible now, but that's not their fault--the US has blockaded them and they can't trade or sell their oil because they're trying to sell it non-US dollars. Also, just like in the US, their government is out of control. They execute people over non-sense. I've found that as long as you're discrete, you can get away with anything anywhere in the Middle East. Even in Saudi Arabia they have underground strip clubs and night clubs.

Bottom line is that for a place to visit for a short trip and experience culture and nice people, I'd pick Iran. For a place to live permanently, I wouldn't pick either one, but if I was forced to, I'd have to pick Israel until Iran's government becomes more rational.

If you think the US Government is as bad as Iran's you have no sense of perspective. As to why I didn't comment on the Video it was nothing but a PR walk back of statement he then went on to repeat. It was pure PR bullshit. Granted this was a powerless Lackey in the Regime the Clerics hold all the real power.

As to the people of Iran it is sad that they are being forced to suffer for the actions of Unelected Clerics. Granted other countries are just as bad, Saudi Arabia for instance, they just know when to smile and nod and how to play the game so they are "valued allies" instead of Terrorist Regimes.

Now on to the Israeli's. I notice you refuse to separate the people from the government in this case. However their government is not above reproach and has done some shady things. They are quick to kill off anyone that opposes them and are illegally holding Nuclear weapons. But does that mean they as a country have no right to exist? I favor the 2 state solution that should have been the case when Israel was founded.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-10-2013, 11:17 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
If I wanted to marry an Iranian woman, I could do so with no issues involved (besides the usual citizenship issues). In Israel interfaith marriage (including atheist marrying a jew is not allowed, the state only recognizes it if it is done outside of Israel.

If I had children I would raise them in Iran, Irans schools are not segregated by religion or race. In Israel most aspects of life are segregated between muslim and jewish people. In Iran jewish kids attend normal public schools in Iran or if they choose, they can attend a jewish school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPEw4hsAn_M
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