Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
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30-10-2013, 11:21 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 11:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 10:43 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I wrote: Here's a challenge: Take the 5 minutes to watch that interview about the Holocaust. Then tell me what SPECIFICALLY he said that is not completely accurate?


Naturally, you run the challenge and don't answer my questions. I'll take that to mean that you cannot find anything in that interview that is not rational and accurate, but don't want to admit it.

The only rebuttal you did was to post a link to some "Jewish News" site (really unbiased there), where all they do is paraphrase everything he says without any quotes. Look, if CNN can't be trusted to paraphrase what he says, surely "Jewish News" cannot. It shows the difference in the way we think. You hear something on the internet that's a paraphrase, and assume it MUST be true. Whereas I insist on going straight to the source and using an official translation.

So, again, I'll repeat the challenge, if you listen to what he REALLY said, can you find anything that he said that is irrational or unreasonable?


Tough call. I've traveled all around the Middle East. Was just there a couple months ago. Iranians (Persians) and Arabs have always been unquestionably warmer and more welcoming to me. I remember going through the desert in Jordon to visit Petra and running across some locals in an off-the-beaten path. They invited me into their home, gave me their hot sweet tea, and were very warm and inviting. Same thing in Egypt. I hired a local translator/guide to go with me, and when I asked if I should offer them some money, he insisted they would be insulted. They invited me into their homes only to be hospitable, and not get anything but a cultural exchange with someone from far away.

And, when I've toured the historic sites, as an amateur photographer, I love taking pictures of the kids. And they are SO happy and joyful and open. I've never had that in Israel (or any Western country for that matter). Tehran is also a much richer city in every sense than Tel Aviv. Not only does it have 14 times as many people, in terms of museums, culture, history, Iran is way better. I would say Iran hands-down if the government behaved like the average people on the street do. Unfortunately, Iran's economy is terrible now, but that's not their fault--the US has blockaded them and they can't trade or sell their oil because they're trying to sell it non-US dollars. Also, just like in the US, their government is out of control. They execute people over non-sense. I've found that as long as you're discrete, you can get away with anything anywhere in the Middle East. Even in Saudi Arabia they have underground strip clubs and night clubs.

Bottom line is that for a place to visit for a short trip and experience culture and nice people, I'd pick Iran. For a place to live permanently, I wouldn't pick either one, but if I was forced to, I'd have to pick Israel until Iran's government becomes more rational.

If you think the US Government is as bad as Iran's you have no sense of perspective. As to why I didn't comment on the Video it was nothing but a PR walk back of statement he then went on to repeat. It was pure PR bullshit. Granted this was a powerless Lackey in the Regime the Clerics hold all the real power.

As to the people of Iran it is sad that they are being forced to suffer for the actions of Unelected Clerics. Granted other countries are just as bad, Saudi Arabia for instance, they just know when to smile and nod and how to play the game so they are "valued allies" instead of Terrorist Regimes.

Now on to the Israeli's. I notice you refuse to separate the people from the government in this case. However their government is not above reproach and has done some shady things. They are quick to kill off anyone that opposes them and are illegally holding Nuclear weapons. But does that mean they as a country have no right to exist? I favor the 2 state solution that should have been the case when Israel was founded.

The link I provided ahmedinijad says he doesn't deny the holocaust. You somehow believe he is lying and secretly believes the holocaust didn't happen???? Do you have any evidence for your claim that he denies the holocaust happened?
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30-10-2013, 11:33 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 11:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Now on to the Israeli's. I notice you refuse to separate the people from the government in this case.

When? I was just writing how in Israel there's a healthy debate about Zionism and about half the Israeli's are opposed to it, which is a higher percentage than the US. Like the US Congress, the Knesset is dominated by extremists who are so much more vocal than the moderates. Many senior politicians vocally and publicly insist the solution to the Palestinian problem is expulsion--just march them to the border and let them die in refugee camps in the deserts, which imo is not a lot less horrific than what the Nazi's did.

My beef is and always has been with the Zionists in the Israeli government who believe that (a) they are god's chosen people and gave them that land and ordered them to exterminate whoever lived there (just like in the bible), and (b) that there is no separation of Church and State and the Israeli state must be a Jewish state, which basically precludes them from ever having an open democracy given the number of Palestinians.

Quote:But does that mean they as a country have no right to exist?

I've never said Israel doesn't have the right to exist. The issue is Palestine. They have built what are effectively giant prisons with those huge walls where millions of Palestinians are kept captive, and then they have the audacity to invade them and confiscate Palestinian homes and give them Jews. It's absolutely horrific, and I find Israeli's will more readily admit it than Americans.

Quote:I favor the 2 state solution that should have been the case when Israel was founded.

Yeah, but Israel invaded the Palestinian state and took it over and are occupying it and have deliberately built Jewish settlements in the heart of every Palestinian neighborhood to ensure that there's no way Palestine can ever exist again. I understand that at many of the peace talks the Israeli's were willing to negotiate and the Palestinians were unreasonable. But, remember the whole are was Palestine, and it was taken from them to compensate the Jews for what the Germans did, and the Palestinians have every right to insist that the Jewish state should have been carved out of Germany--not their homeland.

One last thing to remember... Before WWII, when it WAS Palestine and under Arab control, a high percentage of the population WAS Jewish, and from I've read on Wikipedia, Jews had lived peacefully in Palestine for hundreds of years and the Palestinians didn't oppress the Jews, and Jews participated in the Palestinian government. Once the roles switched and it became a Jewish state, the Palestinians were soon herded up, occupied and stripped of all rights. So it seems that the Palestinians have a better track record of running a government that is tolerant of both sides where they can live together.
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30-10-2013, 11:50 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 11:33 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 11:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Now on to the Israeli's. I notice you refuse to separate the people from the government in this case.

When? I was just writing how in Israel there's a healthy debate about Zionism and about half the Israeli's are opposed to it, which is a higher percentage than the US. Like the US Congress, the Knesset is dominated by extremists who are so much more vocal than the moderates. Many senior politicians vocally and publicly insist the solution to the Palestinian problem is expulsion--just march them to the border and let them die in refugee camps in the deserts, which imo is not a lot less horrific than what the Nazi's did.

My beef is and always has been with the Zionists in the Israeli government who believe that (a) they are god's chosen people and gave them that land and ordered them to exterminate whoever lived there (just like in the bible), and (b) that there is no separation of Church and State and the Israeli state must be a Jewish state, which basically precludes them from ever having an open democracy given the number of Palestinians.

Quote:But does that mean they as a country have no right to exist?

I've never said Israel doesn't have the right to exist. The issue is Palestine. They have built what are effectively giant prisons with those huge walls where millions of Palestinians are kept captive, and then they have the audacity to invade them and confiscate Palestinian homes and give them Jews. It's absolutely horrific, and I find Israeli's will more readily admit it than Americans.

Quote:I favor the 2 state solution that should have been the case when Israel was founded.

Yeah, but Israel invaded the Palestinian state and took it over and are occupying it and have deliberately built Jewish settlements in the heart of every Palestinian neighborhood to ensure that there's no way Palestine can ever exist again. I understand that at many of the peace talks the Israeli's were willing to negotiate and the Palestinians were unreasonable. But, remember the whole are was Palestine, and it was taken from them to compensate the Jews for what the Germans did, and the Palestinians have every right to insist that the Jewish state should have been carved out of Germany--not their homeland.

One last thing to remember... Before WWII, when it WAS Palestine and under Arab control, a high percentage of the population WAS Jewish, and from I've read on Wikipedia, Jews had lived peacefully in Palestine for hundreds of years and the Palestinians didn't oppress the Jews, and Jews participated in the Palestinian government. Once the roles switched and it became a Jewish state, the Palestinians were soon herded up, occupied and stripped of all rights. So it seems that the Palestinians have a better track record of running a government that is tolerant of both sides where they can live together.

No one said it wasn't complicated, well other than the jackass who seems to think Israel shouldn't exist. The West Bank settlements are a major problem and there is a portion of the Israeli government that is as intractable as the Palestinian hardliners. There is also the fact that every other Arab state does not want the Palestinians to get a state. They would lose their go to wag the dog issue, so they tend to egg on the fighting and hard line rhetoric instead of common sense peace talks.

However lets not pretend the Palestinians are completely innocent in everything. Homicide Bombers, rocket attacks, attempting to legitimize a terrorist group as an acting government. Blame goes both ways here and until someone is willing to stop yelling at the world and start talking I don't see any forward progress.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-10-2013, 12:06 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(30-10-2013 11:50 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 11:33 PM)frankksj Wrote:  When? I was just writing how in Israel there's a healthy debate about Zionism and about half the Israeli's are opposed to it, which is a higher percentage than the US. Like the US Congress, the Knesset is dominated by extremists who are so much more vocal than the moderates. Many senior politicians vocally and publicly insist the solution to the Palestinian problem is expulsion--just march them to the border and let them die in refugee camps in the deserts, which imo is not a lot less horrific than what the Nazi's did.

My beef is and always has been with the Zionists in the Israeli government who believe that (a) they are god's chosen people and gave them that land and ordered them to exterminate whoever lived there (just like in the bible), and (b) that there is no separation of Church and State and the Israeli state must be a Jewish state, which basically precludes them from ever having an open democracy given the number of Palestinians.


I've never said Israel doesn't have the right to exist. The issue is Palestine. They have built what are effectively giant prisons with those huge walls where millions of Palestinians are kept captive, and then they have the audacity to invade them and confiscate Palestinian homes and give them Jews. It's absolutely horrific, and I find Israeli's will more readily admit it than Americans.


Yeah, but Israel invaded the Palestinian state and took it over and are occupying it and have deliberately built Jewish settlements in the heart of every Palestinian neighborhood to ensure that there's no way Palestine can ever exist again. I understand that at many of the peace talks the Israeli's were willing to negotiate and the Palestinians were unreasonable. But, remember the whole are was Palestine, and it was taken from them to compensate the Jews for what the Germans did, and the Palestinians have every right to insist that the Jewish state should have been carved out of Germany--not their homeland.

One last thing to remember... Before WWII, when it WAS Palestine and under Arab control, a high percentage of the population WAS Jewish, and from I've read on Wikipedia, Jews had lived peacefully in Palestine for hundreds of years and the Palestinians didn't oppress the Jews, and Jews participated in the Palestinian government. Once the roles switched and it became a Jewish state, the Palestinians were soon herded up, occupied and stripped of all rights. So it seems that the Palestinians have a better track record of running a government that is tolerant of both sides where they can live together.

No one said it wasn't complicated, well other than the jackass who seems to think Israel shouldn't exist. The West Bank settlements are a major problem and there is a portion of the Israeli government that is as intractable as the Palestinian hardliners. There is also the fact that every other Arab state does not want the Palestinians to get a state. They would lose their go to wag the dog issue, so they tend to egg on the fighting and hard line rhetoric instead of common sense peace talks.

However lets not pretend the Palestinians are completely innocent in everything. Homicide Bombers, rocket attacks, attempting to legitimize a terrorist group as an acting government. Blame goes both ways here and until someone is willing to stop yelling at the world and start talking I don't see any forward progress.

In South Africa there were violent groups that trained in guerrilla warfare and terrorism, and like the Palestinians they were facing a fascist government that wanted to and actively carried out policies to create racially and ethnically divided area. A group that is kept in large open air prisons, comparing the violence used by palestineans with the violence used by their oppressors is an extremely stupid comparison.

that is like condemning both a raper and rapist for using violence. Sorry bro, Israel oppresses people and operates a fascist racist government policy. How much do I care that a fascist racist government is attacked? Not at all. In fact, governments like that should be attacked more often.
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31-10-2013, 12:07 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
Pages later and Revenant hasn't posted evidence for his claim that Ahmadienijad denies the holocaust.

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31-10-2013, 12:09 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
Do we all agree that religious governments should not exist?

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31-10-2013, 07:52 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 12:09 AM)I and I Wrote:  Do we all agree that religious governments should not exist?

To me the question is not if they 'should' exist (obviously no) but rather that given that they do exist, what should be done about? Should we lead by example and explain the merits of a secular government, but them change of their own free will? Or should force be used to make them change, essentially like a secular Al Qaeda?

I agree with you on several points, but this is always the one thing I object to. Remember in the other thread on communism I said I opposed the way the West fights communists and thinks we should support you guys and wish you the best. I asked you HOW you wanted to get a communist system: if you felt people should be allowed to voluntarily join a communist system, or if it should be done like the Soviets with a violent revolution, overthrowing the capitalist system, looting the capitalist's wealth (and presumably killing them if they resist), and then closing the borders to prevent anyone from escaping? You said you favor the latter. You basically said that right now you think I am suffering under some oppression that's so subtle I can't even detect it, and your solution is not to liberate me from oppression, it's simply to change my oppressor from being "capitalists" to you communists as you subject me to a form of oppression that's much more severe--namely forcing me at gunpoint to become a communist and plundering everything I have. Personally, if you have outrage at people being oppressed by capitalists, the moral thing to do is free them. Because you embrace the use of violence, what you're effectively saying "I actually LOVE oppression. I just hate it when OTHER PEOPLE (the capitalists) are the ones doing it, so I want to kick them out and I want us communists to be the oppressors! Instead of distributing the goods based on a capitalist system, we communists will confiscate all the goods and WE will decide who gets what according to what WE feel is their need".

Same thing with religion. _IF_ you're suggesting we should use violence to squash religious states, like Saudi Arabia, then, imo, you're no different from the jihadists using violence to create more religious states, and neither of you is morally superior. If you're saying "What can we do to peacefully help them see the light", that's entirely different. Given your statement was "[religious] governments like that should be attacked more often", I assume you're again in favor of using violence. However, we can certainly agree that in the case of Palestine, given that violence was initiated against them first (ie Israel took over Palestine, not the other way around), I do feel that Palestinians counter-attacks are merely self-defense, and, despite being a pacifist, if I was locked in open-air cages like they are, I too would probably be strapping on explosive vests and trying to kill as many of my captors as I could.
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31-10-2013, 08:06 PM
Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
An individual or a group of individuals will never convince the powerful to give up their power. Reforms can be done through convincing, but reforms are not revolutionary. The founding fathers didn't reform the colonial British rule, they did away with British rule completely.

I don't want to loot anyone's wealth, private ownership of the means and profit from human labor is legalized looting, we intend to stop that and take back what is the workers, the wealth they produce will be operated by and for them. If you don't believe the workers should benefit and manage their wealth as a people then explain why they shouldn't. What is your argument against this? Communist parties were large and influential once in the Middle East, they were wiped out by torture, oppression, mass arrests, mass murder. When the working class is attacked by many methods this isn't concerning to the bourgeoise, only when we defend ourselves is when the bourgeoise cry non violence.

I don't believe another state should intervene and get rid of another religious state, the people should do that.
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31-10-2013, 08:32 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 08:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  What is your argument against this?

That's simple. My argument is NOT against your position (I disagree with it, but that's just my opinion). My argument is against using guns and violence to force it on people against their will. I'm all for communism _IF_ you do it like a Kibbutz. Build a community yourself, invite fellow communists to live there, and if people don't like it, don't force them to stay. My argument is NOT against communism--it IS against the use of violence. As I've said a million times, the ONLY thing I've ever heard a libertarian and non-libertarian vehemently disagree on anything is when the non-libertarian is advocating VIOLENCE as the means to accomplish a goal.

I'll ask you this question... You [rightly imo] condemn it when giant walls were built to contain the Palestinians into, effectively, giant open-air prison cells. But, you applaud it when giant walls (like the Berlin Wall) were built to contain the East Germans into, effectively, giant open-air prison cells. Since the communists and the Zionists have both done the exact same thing, namely caging in a group of people and blocking their freedom of movement, why do you think it's evil when the Zionists do it, and wonderful when the communists did it?
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31-10-2013, 08:55 PM
Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 08:32 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(31-10-2013 08:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  What is your argument against this?

That's simple. My argument is NOT against your position (I disagree with it, but that's just my opinion). My argument is against using guns and violence to force it on people against their will. I'm all for communism _IF_ you do it like a Kibbutz. Build a community yourself, invite fellow communists to live there, and if people don't like it, don't force them to stay. My argument is NOT against communism--it IS against the use of violence. As I've said a million times, the ONLY thing I've ever heard a libertarian and non-libertarian vehemently disagree on anything is when the non-libertarian is advocating VIOLENCE as the means to accomplish a goal.

I'll ask you this question... You [rightly imo] condemn it when giant walls were built to contain the Palestinians into, effectively, giant open-air prison cells. But, you applaud it when giant walls (like the Berlin Wall) were built to contain the East Germans into, effectively, giant open-air prison cells. Since the communists and the Zionists have both done the exact same thing, namely caging in a group of people and blocking their freedom of movement, why do you think it's evil when the Zionists do it, and wonderful when the communists did it?

The decision to divide Germany was made by the west, the Berlin wall was built after the fact. The exact reason for it I don't know. The communist party of Germany was extremely popular in Germany at the time.

The Israeli treatment of Palestinians is a methodical planned ethnic cleansing, nothing like the situation in east and west Germany. There is a book called The Decision To Divide Germany that talks about the details of that situation.
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