Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
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31-10-2013, 09:13 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 12:09 AM)I and I Wrote:  Do we all agree that religious governments should not exist?

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So...most places except your favorite target then, America.

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31-10-2013, 10:00 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 08:55 PM)I and I Wrote:  The decision to divide Germany was made by the west, the Berlin wall was built after the fact.

The West simply decided to divide Germany with a line in the dirt to reduce the size of the German territory to prevent them from being able to start another war. But this was a porous line because the West did nothing to prevent people from crossing it. It wasn't meant to be hard barrier--just a way to prevent another World War.

Quote:The exact reason for [the Berlin Wall] I don't know.

Me thinks it best to visit Wikipedia Berlin Wall to learn the reason before deciding the comparison is invalid.

Before the Wall's erection, 3.5 million East Germans circumvented Eastern Bloc emigration restrictions and defected from the GDR, many by crossing over the border from East Berlin into West Berlin, from where they could then travel to West Germany and other Western European countries. Between 1961 and 1989, the wall prevented almost all such emigration.[4] During this period, around 5,000 people attempted to escape over the wall...The Eastern Bloc claimed that the wall was erected to protect its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany. In practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that marked Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period.

So, yes, the point of the Wall was to contain the East Germans and block their freedom of movement.

Quote:The Israeli treatment of Palestinians is a methodical planned ethnic cleansing, nothing like the situation in east and west Germany.

No, it's not "ethnic cleansing". Israel doesn't give a fuck about the Palestinians ethnicity. Some Palestinians are Israeli citizens. The Israeli Zionists' goal is NOT to necessarily get rid of the Palestinian ethnicity, it's to take the Palestinians assets (their land). The Israeli wall is used to contain them.

Now, with the communists, their goal was also the same as the Zionists. Their goal was simply to take the East German people's assets (their land, their homes, and most importantly, their skills and the fruits of their labor). No serious scholar will dispute that the Berlin Wall was simply a way for the communists to get those assets, namely to block East Germans from escaping and taking their assets (their skills and labor).

I am definitely NOT in any way defending Israel. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy that you gave the communists a free pass for doing the same thing.
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31-10-2013, 10:25 PM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(15-10-2013 07:03 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  You DO know there are more people in the world than just 300+ million americans, right?

Now maybe reconsider whether Bush or Obama is hated more.

Am I the only American who is embarrassed to live in a country where Obama is hated more than Bush was?
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31-10-2013, 11:20 PM
Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 10:00 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(31-10-2013 08:55 PM)I and I Wrote:  The decision to divide Germany was made by the west, the Berlin wall was built after the fact.

The West simply decided to divide Germany with a line in the dirt to reduce the size of the German territory to prevent them from being able to start another war. But this was a porous line because the West did nothing to prevent people from crossing it. It wasn't meant to be hard barrier--just a way to prevent another World War.

Quote:The exact reason for [the Berlin Wall] I don't know.

Me thinks it best to visit Wikipedia Berlin Wall to learn the reason before deciding the comparison is invalid.

Before the Wall's erection, 3.5 million East Germans circumvented Eastern Bloc emigration restrictions and defected from the GDR, many by crossing over the border from East Berlin into West Berlin, from where they could then travel to West Germany and other Western European countries. Between 1961 and 1989, the wall prevented almost all such emigration.[4] During this period, around 5,000 people attempted to escape over the wall...The Eastern Bloc claimed that the wall was erected to protect its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany. In practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that marked Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period.

So, yes, the point of the Wall was to contain the East Germans and block their freedom of movement.

Quote:The Israeli treatment of Palestinians is a methodical planned ethnic cleansing, nothing like the situation in east and west Germany.

No, it's not "ethnic cleansing". Israel doesn't give a fuck about the Palestinians ethnicity. Some Palestinians are Israeli citizens. The Israeli Zionists' goal is NOT to necessarily get rid of the Palestinian ethnicity, it's to take the Palestinians assets (their land). The Israeli wall is used to contain them.

Now, with the communists, their goal was also the same as the Zionists. Their goal was simply to take the East German people's assets (their land, their homes, and most importantly, their skills and the fruits of their labor). No serious scholar will dispute that the Berlin Wall was simply a way for the communists to get those assets, namely to block East Germans from escaping and taking their assets (their skills and labor).

I am definitely NOT in any way defending Israel. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy that you gave the communists a free pass for doing the same thing.

The German communist party was very popular after the war. The two leading parties (communists and western Democratic Party) were supposed to have elections, these elections were stalled by by the soviets and the west because both were afraid of the other winning. West Germany also had most of the industry, and the west didn't want reparations from German businesses to go to the soviets. So the west used its leverage in getting out of paying repetitions and setting up a western business and political apparatus dividing Germany. The Germans weren't trying to ethnically cleanse Germany after the war like Israel is doing. Totally different situation.

You seem to think that German politics after the war was ruled by soviets. Germany was full of communists and communism was extremely popular before and after the war.
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01-11-2013, 05:43 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 10:25 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(15-10-2013 07:03 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  You DO know there are more people in the world than just 300+ million americans, right?

Now maybe reconsider whether Bush or Obama is hated more.

Am I the only American who is embarrassed to live in a country where Obama is hated more than Bush was?

No...it just means you are an Obama supporter. Most Obama haters think the same thing about Bush haters.
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01-11-2013, 08:53 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 12:09 AM)I and I Wrote:  Do we all agree that religious governments should not exist?

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Sure would help if you could define "religious government".
I'm pretty sure the vatican state would disagree with you....also, most islamic states headed by religious leaders.
Or are you pointing directly at the US?

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
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01-11-2013, 09:44 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(31-10-2013 11:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  The German communist party was very popular after the war.

You don't dispute the facts I presented. You just seem to ignore them. After the war, the communists put up barriers to prevent emigration. But, without a physical, militarized wall, 3.5 million East Germans fled to the West in the 1950's, and the only way the East Germans could stop the outpouring was to build a huge wall and a militarized zone and shoot and kill people who tried to escape. Time even had a cover image of a dead, bloody body draped over the wall, tangled in the barbed wire, which the East Germans just left there too rot, presumably as a warning to other would-be defectors, like the old head on the stake in the barbarian days.

Address this fact. Don't ignore it. If the facts don't support your opinion, then you need to revise your opinion. Answer these basic questions:

1. If things were great in East Germany, why in the 1950's, did 3.5 million Germans move from East to West? Why wasn't anybody going from the West, where according to you they were being horribly oppressed by capitalist tyrants, to the East, where they were "free of oppression" with a popular communist party?

2. Who built the Wall? The East or the West? And why? These are NOT hard questions to answer.

3. Regarding reparations, you're complaint is that the capitalists on the West stopped giving reparations to the Communists on the East. I'm not familiar with this. But regardless, if Communism was working so well, why did the East need handouts from the West? Why didn't they just do what the West did, and build a modern industrial society? ALL of Germany, west and east, was destroyed by the war. So why were the West Germans able to pick themselves up, dust off their boots, roll up their sleeves, and rebuild. While the East Germans were looking to the West for aid?
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01-11-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(01-11-2013 05:43 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(31-10-2013 10:25 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Am I the only American who is embarrassed to live in a country where Obama is hated more than Bush was?

No...it just means you are an Obama supporter. Most Obama haters think the same thing about Bush haters.

No I don't really care for Obama. I just have a hard time understanding why people hate him so much. Bush was well liked when he was in office. The rest of the world seems to like Obama, but people here really hate him. He seems like a nice guy and he has some decent ideas but he has no balls. Usually I am all for the guy who lands smack in the middle. I love the guy who tries to please everyone and ends up pissing everyone off. But right now we don't have wiggle room to play around with people who mean to take away our civil rights. Well that is just my humble opinion. I can't wait for Hilary I wanted her in the first place. I think she will be way better than Obama.
I was referring to something else entirely with the embarrassment. People hate Obama because he is black, because he Muslim (even though he isn't) because he was born in Kenya (even though he wasn't). People even hate Michelle, though I'm not really sure why. Maybe they're pissed off because she's trying to take their kids' snack cakes away who knows. I think Michelle Obama is great. I don't find it embarrassing that people don't like Obama's politics. It's embarrassing that people blindly hate him. It is also embarrassing that Bush had/has so many supporters. He was a terrible president.
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01-11-2013, 11:30 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(01-11-2013 10:40 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 05:43 AM)BryanS Wrote:  No...it just means you are an Obama supporter. Most Obama haters think the same thing about Bush haters.

No I don't really care for Obama. I just have a hard time understanding why people hate him so much. Bush was well liked when he was in office. The rest of the world seems to like Obama, but people here really hate him. He seems like a nice guy and he has some decent ideas but he has no balls. Usually I am all for the guy who lands smack in the middle. I love the guy who tries to please everyone and ends up pissing everyone off. But right now we don't have wiggle room to play around with people who mean to take away our civil rights. Well that is just my humble opinion. I can't wait for Hilary I wanted her in the first place. I think she will be way better than Obama.
I was referring to something else entirely with the embarrassment. People hate Obama because he is black, because he Muslim (even though he isn't) because he was born in Kenya (even though he wasn't). People even hate Michelle, though I'm not really sure why. Maybe they're pissed off because she's trying to take their kids' snack cakes away who knows. I think Michelle Obama is great. I don't find it embarrassing that people don't like Obama's politics. It's embarrassing that people blindly hate him. It is also embarrassing that Bush had/has so many supporters. He was a terrible president.

I think it's because you don't understand the right. The Republicans who loved Bush (generally) also loved war and wanted to see the middle east nukes. Drone stricks? Sure, more of 'em. Massacre an entire town? Sure, why not two. Wiretap the French? Mais oui, bien sûr.

The Democrats who voted for Obama thought he was going to bring change, and despised what Bush did. Obama promised to be different. So the reality that he's just doing the same thing Bush did pisses Democrats off. To someone who is neither Democrat nor Republican, I wouldn't say Obama is worse than Bush. He's just Bush 2.0.
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01-11-2013, 11:36 AM
RE: Have Presidents Always Been Hated This Much?
(01-11-2013 11:30 AM)frankksj Wrote:  I think it's because you don't understand the right. The Republicans who loved Bush (generally) also loved war and wanted to see the middle east nukes. Drone stricks? Sure, more of 'em. Massacre an entire town? Sure, why not two. Wiretap the French? Mais oui, bien sûr.

The Democrats who voted for Obama thought he was going to bring change, and despised what Bush did. Obama promised to be different. So the reality that he's just doing the same thing Bush did pisses Democrats off. To someone who is neither Democrat nor Republican, I wouldn't say Obama is worse than Bush. He's just Bush 2.0.

Meh. I definitely think Bush was worse. Who does understand the right these days? I used to think I did. I used to like them better. Now we have right wing doctors and and scientists who are politicians popping up everywhere spouting bullshit like there is no evolution or global warming and if you're really raped for real your body can't get pregnant. Ugh.
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