Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
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13-06-2012, 12:24 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(13-06-2012 09:08 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 08:00 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  However it is largely a result of possessing zero-state morality that I am able to consider such a conclusion. People locked into concepts of good and evil are blinded to the subtleties of agenda.
I have read this 3 times now and I have no idea what it means.
He is a trained intelligence operative. What did you expect? Tongue

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13-06-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(13-06-2012 09:20 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Obfuscation FTW! Big Grin

Nah. It means that peeps get vapor lock on the concept of goodness. Say things like, "our government couldn't be involved with such evil." It ain't evil, it's expediency. A very dangerous word, expediency.
Ok. I'm not sure what that has to do with my post or my point. I never said anything about "good" or "evil". I simply said that there is absolutely no evidence to support any of these batshit conspiracy theories.

And, what was the an expediency for? Please don't tell me "Iraq" because we didn't use 9/11 to go into Iraq. Granted, 9/11 made it much easier for Bush to get the approval to do it, but that was not the reason we went in. It is the reason we went into Afghanistan but what possible reason did we have to go into Afghanistan before 9/11? It's a total wasteland where armies go to die. It has been for thousands of years. It has no resources worth exploiting so there is no reason to be there.

Why is it so difficult to believe that a bunch of fanatics who were hellbent on attacking the US for 20 years and tried multiple times to hit us at home; who along the way bombed 2 of our embassies in Africa; a barracks in Saudi Arabia, and almost sunk a war ship, the USS Cole, in Yemen, would be responsible for attacking us on 9/11? Because it seems implausible? There is overwhelming evidence that this is exactly what happened and zero actual evidence to support these crazy conspiracy theories.

I really don't get this. It is like the tinfoil hat brigade has taken over.

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13-06-2012, 06:58 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(13-06-2012 12:24 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 09:08 AM)BnW Wrote:  I have read this 3 times now and I have no idea what it means.
He is a trained intelligence operative. What did you expect? Tongue
I believe he is actually counter-intelligence. Dodgy

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13-06-2012, 07:50 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(13-06-2012 06:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 12:24 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  He is a trained intelligence operative. What did you expect? Tongue
I believe he is actually counter-intelligence. Dodgy
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13-06-2012, 07:53 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(13-06-2012 06:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 12:24 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  He is a trained intelligence operative. What did you expect? Tongue
I believe he is actually counter-intelligence. Dodgy
That sounds counter-intuitive.

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15-06-2012, 03:40 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
As for the OP, I never questioned the holocaust. Nazis and concentration camps were a harsh reality of my grandparents' lives. And now that I think of it, there is a strange lack of Jews around here, about 3 of them.

But the 9/11 terrorist attack, that's something different. There's are many weird circumstances around it, that I can't help but be suspicious. Most of all, I worked a few times with a wire mesh net for a fence rolled into a tube. This is I suppose how the two skyscrapers were built, to sway in the wind flexibly and to withstand multiple airplane hits each. Whatever happens, they should not have collapsed, it's the way of a greatest resistance, something that such a structure would not do. It should crumple sideways, not collapse upon itself. This is what my gut instinct tells me. Maybe experts have a different opinion, but I'm not an expert and I don't know how a building can lose all its flexibility so suddenly.
Then of course there are all the other weird things, termite traces, molten steel, sulphurous smoke, seismic records and a completely unrelated collapse of the WTC 7 building. You surely heard of it all. I don't know what to make of it, but I'm totally weirded out.

But that wouldn't be me if I didn't think of something original. It seems to me it was not an attack of Islamic extremists. Sure, the people on airplanes were religious fanatics, but that's because they were willing to do the job. All the other aspects of the attack show a different mind behind it all.
They did not attack a megachurch, cathedral, Liberty statue or White house. They attacked the World Trade Center. I don't know how about you, but that was the first time I ever heard of such an institution. This target had to be chosen by someone who, excuse the expression, means his business. Some business-minded person who resents the dominance of American economic power.

Maybe I heard some more cynical people say that this was a fine tactic to strike Americans where it will hurt, but it won't damage the executive and military power. Remember, Pentagon was hardly nicked at one corner by something unidentifiable, certainly not a Boeing. Remember, weapon business is the largest in the world and causing a war is good for this business. I don't know if I believe that, but I know there are stock market brokers who would do that, because they suffer a mild brain damage that removes all ability of empathy.

Shortly said, I know people usually think how this attack was done by religious fanatics or insane politicians, but to me it shows some disturbing economic features.
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15-06-2012, 04:34 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
Fucking Lumi. I don't know if having you on my side is a good thing.


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15-06-2012, 04:48 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
Quote:But the 9/11 terrorist attack, that's something different. There's are
many weird circumstances around it, that I can't help but be suspicious.
Most of all, I worked a few times with a wire mesh net for a fence
rolled into a tube. This is I suppose how the two skyscrapers were
built, to sway in the wind flexibly and to withstand multiple airplane
hits each. Whatever happens, they should not have collapsed, it's the
way of a greatest resistance, something that such a structure would not
do. It should crumple sideways, not collapse upon itself. This is what
my gut instinct tells me. Maybe experts have a different opinion, but
I'm not an expert and I don't know how a building can lose all its
flexibility so suddenly.
Well, your gut instinct is wrong. The mechanism for collapse is quite clear - and it has nothing to do with flexibility.

Quote:Then of course there are all the other weird things, termite traces,
molten steel, sulphurous smoke, seismic records and a completely
unrelated collapse of the WTC 7 building. You surely heard of it all. I
don't know what to make of it, but I'm totally weirded out.
Then find out more - don't be satisfied with ignorance.


Quote:But that wouldn't be me if I didn't think of something original. It
seems to me it was not an attack of Islamic extremists. Sure, the people
on airplanes were religious fanatics, but that's because they were
willing to do the job. All the other aspects of the attack show a
different mind behind it all.
They did not attack a megachurch,
cathedral, Liberty statue or White house. They attacked the World Trade
Center. I don't know how about you, but that was the first time I ever
heard of such an institution. This target had to be chosen by someone
who, excuse the expression, means his business. Some business-minded
person who resents the dominance of American economic power.
That would describe Osama bin Laden.

Quote:Maybe I heard some more cynical people say that this was a fine
tactic to strike Americans where it will hurt, but it won't damage the
executive and military power. Remember, Pentagon was hardly nicked at
one corner by something unidentifiable, certainly not a Boeing.
Remember, weapon business is the largest in the world and causing a war
is good for this business. I don't know if I believe that, but I know
there are stock market brokers who would do that, because they suffer a
mild brain damage that removes all ability of empathy.
Don't be ridiculous - I know people who saw that plane hit the Pentagon.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-06-2012, 04:50 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(15-06-2012 04:34 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking Lumi. I don't know if having you on my side is a good thing.


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I think he means well. He's just ignorant - there is a cure. Smartass

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16-06-2012, 03:55 AM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2012 04:10 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(15-06-2012 04:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  Then find out more - don't be satisfied with ignorance.
I originally thought some of these artifacts of flowing molten steel in ruins and cut steel pillars might have been simply a work of clearing away the rubbish, but I haven't ever heard anyone use that argument before. And now I see the steel flowed from there right from the beginning, before it even collapsed. I heard opinions like the fuel could trigger a thermit reaction with all this alluminium and rust of iron, but that works only with mixed powders and even then it's not easy to ignite. And, that still wouldn't explain why the speed of collapsing was like a free fall, I heard this one bugs experts the most.

Anyway, I know these questions are just technical details. The real cause behind it all is of course injustice of the economic system, inequality between whole nations. Whether that was a plot to justify conquering the middle east, or it was a terrorist attack, the global market injustice is the root cause. I'd much rather be done with the whole resource and finance gambling system, than catch the worst terrorists.

(15-06-2012 04:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  That would describe Osama bin Laden.
Yes, he was a face for the media, he probably also donated money and provided the fanatics. But I wonder how could he be so short-sighted to accomplish nothing and provoke a global military superpower. If he somehow managed to pulverize Wall Street, major global stock markets or some government building full of representatives, that might have some lasting effect.
Osama's death is not less strange. My information is, that Osama had serious kidney problems and that he died on them in 2006. The one caught by american assassins was probably his brother, because nowhere in the building were any dialysis machines that would keep the true Osama alive. So maybe somebody didn't want him to talk. If so, then Osama wasn't the highest one in the terrorist hierarchy, he was expendable.
I know it's not logical, there are contradictions. I can't figure out how much was Osama an idealistic mujahedin vs. how much his possible supervisors were cynical economic manipulators and why did he go along with this all.

(15-06-2012 04:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  Don't be ridiculous - I know people who saw that plane hit the Pentagon.
OK, this one is more believable and educative in simulations. I didn't realize how big the Pentagon building is compared to a Boeing and how far away the camera was. So there is no mystery here.

(15-06-2012 04:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-06-2012 04:34 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking Lumi. I don't know if having you on my side is a good thing.
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I think he means well. He's just ignorant - there is a cure. Smartass
Don't worry HoC, this is not presenting my opinion, that's a kind of thinking "aloud" and openly. I am a man of experience. If I don't have a solid experience, I don't have a solid opinion. In such a case I can be convinced of anything by evidence and logic.

Although I keep the right of thinking of things in unusual ways (brainstorming), because it's fun and may sometimes bring valuable insight. It's called growing Heron's beard (after the philosopher John Heron) so there is something to trim by Occam's razor.
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