Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
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16-06-2012, 07:42 AM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(15-06-2012 04:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-06-2012 04:34 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking Lumi. I don't know if having you on my side is a good thing.


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I think he means well. He's just ignorant - there is a cure. Smartass
I like Lumi. I don't think he's ignorant so much as committed. Being an amateur scientist is having an increased likelihood of falling in love with your own theories, and when you're on the fringe like me and Lumi - well, it's lonely out here. Big Grin

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16-06-2012, 08:27 AM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(16-06-2012 07:42 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(15-06-2012 04:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  I think he means well. He's just ignorant - there is a cure. Smartass
I like Lumi. I don't think he's ignorant so much as committed. Being an amateur scientist is having an increased likelihood of falling in love with your own theories, and when you're on the fringe like me and Lumi - well, it's lonely out here. Big Grin
I am not using 'ignorant' as a pejorative, merely descriptive. His knowledge of the scientific method seems spotty and incomplete; also tangled up with non-scientific ideas of evidence and causality.

Maybe he's on to something, maybe not. But his practices will remain woo until subjected to scrutiny and test.
The practice of medicine has followed this route from 'humours' and 'vapours' to the germ theory and genetics.

He and his cohorts are in the 'humours and vapours' stage. However, like phlogiston, there may be no future in it.

I think it's the height of woo; serious, wacky, crazy woo. But without subjecting it to test, I remain open to changing my mind. When I take an annoyed or hectoring tone, it's because Lumi is just repeating the same crap and making no progress in knowledge - and no apparent effort at doing so.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-06-2012, 06:47 PM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(16-06-2012 03:55 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Although I keep the right of thinking of things in unusual ways (brainstorming), because it's fun and may sometimes bring valuable insight. It's called growing Heron's beard (after the philosopher John Heron) so there is something to trim by Occam's razor.

Ha - Lumi - I think I'm beginning to appreciate your wink. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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16-06-2012, 08:47 PM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2012 08:54 PM by kim.)
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
I don't really think much about conspiracies. It's possible - very easily possible - as HoC has said. And just because something can be explained scientifically, doesn't mean that someone doesn't use science or an explanation to advantage. I'm talking to you Kingsy. When the WTC buildings went down, I thought a few things were interesting in the way it happened. Then again, things built in the sixties are pretty sturdy. Wink

Something did puzzled me for a while, but I looked into the composition of the building and thought about possibilities. I can say I am satisfied with my own understanding of chemistry and how a catastrophic event may cause a thermite reaction through out a 1960s building constructed of steel, concrete, and aluminum. The physical and chemical stability of reactant oxides was what I was not very familiar with so I read up and was satisfied with results of my research. As steel beams snapped and concrete was pulverized, rusted steel imbedded within the concrete would be exposed continually throughout the building and this would be enough for continued, sustained, reactant chemical thermite combustion. Sadly, the thing that finally convinced me of this were cell phone calls. People had to have oxygen to be alive and we knew they were, because they made phone calls.

With volatile reactant oxides, the reaction between aluminum and the gaseous oxides can become the step that initiates ignition. In the case of class 3 oxides, the ignition process is more complex because the oxygen liberated from the decomposition of the oxide can play a significant role in initiating the combustion of reaction. For example, the ignition of CrO3-A1 mixture can occur at as low a temperature as about 170 degrees C, which is the decomposition temperature of CrO3. And with the Class 4 oxides, further oxidation takes place in air, and the heat liberated from this reaction can heat the specimen to the ignition point of the thermite reaction.

Ignition of thermite reactions can be accomplished in a variety of methods. They can be ignited by a composition wave from a chemical reaction, an electrical current, radiation energy from a heat source or a lazier, or a mechanical impact. I think the most promising possibility is mechanical impact, combined with composition wave from a chemical reaction.

Striking an aluminum smear on a piece of rusty mild steel with a hammer can create a spark and this has been blamed for initiating explosions in chemical plants and mines. In this case, the occurrence of thermite reactions constitutes an industrial fire hazard.

Planes were flown into buildings and three thousand people were murdered. It was a hideous tragedy. I think people are confused as to what to think about at a certain point.

I would suggest research BEFORE 9/11/2001

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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17-06-2012, 05:16 AM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(16-06-2012 08:47 PM)kim Wrote:  With volatile reactant oxides, the reaction between aluminum and the gaseous oxides can become the step that initiates ignition. In the case of class 3 oxides, the ignition process is more complex because the oxygen liberated from the decomposition of the oxide can play a significant role in initiating the combustion of reaction. For example, the ignition of CrO3-A1 mixture can occur at as low a temperature as about 170 degrees C, which is the decomposition temperature of CrO3. And with the Class 4 oxides, further oxidation takes place in air, and the heat liberated from this reaction can heat the specimen to the ignition point of the thermite reaction.
When I don't know facts, I turn to other points of view. Sociologic, political, market, precedents, common sense, anything goes. I'd get easily convinced if there were any other cases like this. Skyscrapers can burn all night long like a candle and in the morning be still sturdy enough to have a big crane installed on the top to clear away the rubble. If they spontaneously generated an infernal cocktail of thermite and streams molten steel, I'm sure Hollywood would exploit that little fact of physics to the utmost screenplay limits.
I'm sure firefighters are educated and trained to deal with many phenomena of fire dynamics, like don't open door or the fire will blow in your face, or don't fly a helicopter above a burning building. OTOH, we find new things every day, so I'd expect some scientific understanding of this, tests, replication and new safety guidelines for building construction.
That's one more fact about the whole event that doesn't make sense Consider
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17-06-2012, 06:11 AM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(17-06-2012 05:16 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(16-06-2012 08:47 PM)kim Wrote:  With volatile reactant oxides, the reaction between aluminum and the gaseous oxides can become the step that initiates ignition. In the case of class 3 oxides, the ignition process is more complex because the oxygen liberated from the decomposition of the oxide can play a significant role in initiating the combustion of reaction. For example, the ignition of CrO3-A1 mixture can occur at as low a temperature as about 170 degrees C, which is the decomposition temperature of CrO3. And with the Class 4 oxides, further oxidation takes place in air, and the heat liberated from this reaction can heat the specimen to the ignition point of the thermite reaction.
When I don't know facts, I turn to other points of view. Sociologic, political, market, precedents, common sense, anything goes. I'd get easily convinced if there were any other cases like this. Skyscrapers can burn all night long like a candle and in the morning be still sturdy enough to have a big crane installed on the top to clear away the rubble. If they spontaneously generated an infernal cocktail of thermite and streams molten steel, I'm sure Hollywood would exploit that little fact of physics to the utmost screenplay limits.
I'm sure firefighters are educated and trained to deal with many phenomena of fire dynamics, like don't open door or the fire will blow in your face, or don't fly a helicopter above a burning building. OTOH, we find new things every day, so I'd expect some scientific understanding of this, tests, replication and new safety guidelines for building construction.
That's one more fact about the whole event that doesn't make sense Consider
These fires were unique in that there wasn't a single point of ignition. An entire airplane, loaded with fuel, spread across an entire story (or more) of the building, ignited. This had never happened and was not envisioned in the designing of the building.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-06-2012, 02:32 AM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(16-06-2012 08:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  Maybe he's on to something, maybe not. But his practices will remain woo until subjected to scrutiny and test.
The practice of medicine has followed this route from 'humours' and 'vapours' to the germ theory and genetics.

He and his cohorts are in the 'humours and vapours' stage. However, like phlogiston, there may be no future in it.

I think it's the height of woo; serious, wacky, crazy woo. But without subjecting it to test, I remain open to changing my mind. When I take an annoyed or hectoring tone, it's because Lumi is just repeating the same crap and making no progress in knowledge - and no apparent effort at doing so.
What about the link to journals of scientific experiments that I posted? I don't like when you ignore the precious science facts that I have. Or do you just wait till I start new and separate topic about it?
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20-06-2012, 06:39 AM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(20-06-2012 02:32 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(16-06-2012 08:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  Maybe he's on to something, maybe not. But his practices will remain woo until subjected to scrutiny and test.
The practice of medicine has followed this route from 'humours' and 'vapours' to the germ theory and genetics.

He and his cohorts are in the 'humours and vapours' stage. However, like phlogiston, there may be no future in it.

I think it's the height of woo; serious, wacky, crazy woo. But without subjecting it to test, I remain open to changing my mind. When I take an annoyed or hectoring tone, it's because Lumi is just repeating the same crap and making no progress in knowledge - and no apparent effort at doing so.
What about the link to journals of scientific experiments that I posted? I don't like when you ignore the precious science facts that I have. Or do you just wait till I start new and separate topic about it?
They weren't scientific journals.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-06-2012, 09:29 AM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
(17-06-2012 05:16 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(16-06-2012 08:47 PM)kim Wrote:  With volatile reactant oxides, the reaction between aluminum and the gaseous oxides can become the step that initiates ignition. In the case of class 3 oxides, the ignition process is more complex because the oxygen liberated from the decomposition of the oxide can play a significant role in initiating the combustion of reaction. For example, the ignition of CrO3-A1 mixture can occur at as low a temperature as about 170 degrees C, which is the decomposition temperature of CrO3. And with the Class 4 oxides, further oxidation takes place in air, and the heat liberated from this reaction can heat the specimen to the ignition point of the thermite reaction.
When I don't know facts, I turn to other points of view. Sociologic, political, market, precedents, common sense, anything goes. I'd get easily convinced if there were any other cases like this. Skyscrapers can burn all night long like a candle and in the morning be still sturdy enough to have a big crane installed on the top to clear away the rubble. If they spontaneously generated an infernal cocktail of thermite and streams molten steel, I'm sure Hollywood would exploit that little fact of physics to the utmost screenplay limits.
I'm sure firefighters are educated and trained to deal with many phenomena of fire dynamics, like don't open door or the fire will blow in your face, or don't fly a helicopter above a burning building. OTOH, we find new things every day, so I'd expect some scientific understanding of this, tests, replication and new safety guidelines for building construction.
That's one more fact about the whole event that doesn't make sense Consider

Lumi...
This paragraph from my response which you cite, is taken verbatim from the scientific paper which I provided at the bottom. This scientific paper from 1993, was peer reviewed, and reported experimental findings on specific chemicals and materials under a variety of conditions. It was published for industrial research to determine previously unknown possible fire hazards in building materials. This specific passage pertained to the volatile nature of aluminum and rust being rapidly exposed to air, under a variety of conditions including heat and impact.

For thermite reaction (burning of aluminum & rust) to take place the temperature of ignition only needs to be 170 degrees celsius -a very low temperature. And it can happen very rapidly upon exposure to air -a wave of hot air or a spark from metal hitting metal, even the heat produced from metal itself snapping will cause heat and frictional spark. Conditions were not just right, they were ideal to cause the continual ignition of a thermite reaction.

Thermite is a chemical reaction that once ignited, burns so hot that it's intense heat literally burns itself out, and if it comes in contact with steel and other metals, they can become molten very quickly. The thermite process is often utilized in welding in tight areas, or field areas such as out on rail road tracks to quickly fuse steel tracks.

When steel beams snapped to crush and pulverize concrete, rusted steel within the concrete became to exposed air, a thermite reaction was not only possible, but quite expected- they expected it since 1993 when this paper was published. The same paper also said the same reactions had been previously suspected to be the initial culprit in mine explosions and chemical plants and was confirmed in prior reports. Much of this information was not known at the time the WTC was built in the 1960s, but became understood by experiments conducted after, some of which are reported in this and other papers.
__________________
If read, many scientific papers can be understood, often with basic or moderate knowledge of the science discussed therein. I understand this particular paper with a moderate grasp of chemistry, which I learned mostly from testing different materials for the making of pottery.

Scientific research usually amounts to an explanation of what happens to something and why it happens that way, that's all. Science is nothing to shy away from or discount because some bits of the knowledge are beyond one's current understanding. Take what you do understand of presented information, and think of applications you know where such an explanation will be able to fit, and then ask questions. That is pretty much what scientists do, and anyone can do the same -we all have a scientific mind- it utilizes and applies logical thought and reason.

You said: "When I don't know facts, I turn to other points of view. Sociologic, political, market, precedents, common sense, anything goes." Oddly, those things listed usually exhaust themselves with repeated inaccurate findings and worry, and finally turn to science to make sense of things for them. I encourage you to cut out the middle man that will cause nothing but inaccuracy and worry, Lumi. If you have to, slow everything down and look at the basics; exercise your scientific mind, and you will find explanations for most things which you can be confident are accurate. Everyone has an innate scientific mind ... we all just need to get into the habit of exercising it more. Thumbsup

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20-06-2012, 09:32 AM
RE: Have you ever questioned the information about 9/11 or the holocaust?
I feel as if the spirit of ArcticFool lives on.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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