Have you lost your morals yet?
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14-09-2014, 10:37 PM
RE: Have you lost your morals yet?
(14-09-2014 09:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(14-09-2014 07:33 PM)Dom Wrote:  Stevil, even animals have what you can call "morals", as in rules of behavior that benefit the group rather than the individual. All herd/pack/etc. animals do. It's evolution, not conscious choice. It's innate.
Morality completely requires the "moral agent" to have choices. If actions are innate rather than being a conscious choice then morality doesn't come into play.

The concept of morality requires that the "moral agent" be aware of right and wrong and requires them to freely make a choice between right and wrong actions.

Is just semantics again. Some set of actions are labelled moral. Is all. For example turns out that ja, lots of groups of people throughout history had the bright idea that randomly murdering people isn't the sharpest thing to do evolutionary-wise. Christians call this "absolute truth" and "God-given morals" or some such shit. Chas calls it "innate moral sense". Point is, it *does* exist, this convergence of ideas that some actions are "bad" and some actions are "good". Of course 'cos we're humans there's whole raft of stupid stuff tacked on over and above the stuff which makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint - for example homosexuality is taboo in *some* cultures rather than others.

Ja morals don't exist in some sense that some set of actions can be really called "right" or "wrong" but like the value of money or a treaty or some shit like that, a mutual social agreement... it becomes a fiction that has almost the same force as if it actually existed. Some people can't tell the difference, which ye merry Christians exploit.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-09-2014, 04:30 AM
RE: Have you lost your morals yet?
(14-09-2014 09:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(14-09-2014 07:33 PM)Dom Wrote:  Stevil, even animals have what you can call "morals", as in rules of behavior that benefit the group rather than the individual. All herd/pack/etc. animals do. It's evolution, not conscious choice. It's innate.
Morality completely requires the "moral agent" to have choices. If actions are innate rather than being a conscious choice then morality doesn't come into play.

The concept of morality requires that the "moral agent" be aware of right and wrong and requires them to freely make a choice between right and wrong actions.

No it doesn't. All social animals follow innate rules of behavior that favor their group rather than themselves.

Like all evolutionary traits, they are present in varying degrees in specific individuals, but the group will punish or oust members who do not display those traits.

Humans are nothing special here, no superior brain required.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-09-2014, 01:57 PM
RE: Have you lost your morals yet?
(15-09-2014 04:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(14-09-2014 09:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Morality completely requires the "moral agent" to have choices. If actions are innate rather than being a conscious choice then morality doesn't come into play.

The concept of morality requires that the "moral agent" be aware of right and wrong and requires them to freely make a choice between right and wrong actions.

No it doesn't. All social animals follow innate rules of behavior that favor their group rather than themselves.
Then we are talking about bahaviour rather than morality. There is a difference. Morality requires knowledge of right and wrong and freedom to choose.
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15-09-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Have you lost your morals yet?
(15-09-2014 01:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Morality requires knowledge of right and wrong and freedom to choose.
Does morality require knowledge of right and wrong? Or does it define right and wrong in a social context?

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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15-09-2014, 04:01 PM
RE: Have you lost your morals yet?
(15-09-2014 02:52 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(15-09-2014 01:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Morality requires knowledge of right and wrong and freedom to choose.
Does morality require knowledge of right and wrong? Or does it define right and wrong in a social context?
Thanks Adrianime.
I think we certainly should be trying to define the moral landscape before leaping into arguments about it. Define the boundaries and qualifying criteria.
By my understanding moral actions are only a subset of all behaviours.
For example the choice to eat an apple rather than a banana isn't percieved to be a moral choice.
Also giving your money to a starving person isn't perceived as a moral action if that starving person has a gun to your head.
It's also not generally percieved to be a moral action if you do it for selfish reasons.
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15-09-2014, 04:55 PM
RE: Have you lost your morals yet?
Morals are subjective and can many issues and decisions can easily be portrayed as moral and also immoral.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth." - Henry David Thoreau
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