Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
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24-03-2014, 10:54 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:47 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:36 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Does the devil use deception to communicate with humans?

Is the devil real??

Is God?
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24-03-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:17 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 09:45 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Question: Is salvation by faith alone?

Salvation is not by faith alone, 90% of the time it starts out as something uncontrollable that happens in your life, and your left to look up at God and question if is he is there. The ones that honestly want him to be involved in there lives, I mean honestly not giving him a half chance, I mean giving him the full opportunity, He meets. Right then and there and that experience is cemented. That is how it happened for me. In that moment God met me

ORLY? What did "he" look like? What kind of car was "he" driving? How was "he"' dressed? Why didn't you drag him onto Oprah and have him do parlour tricks?

Why do you refuse to answer or even acknowledge my *honest* questions?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-03-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:47 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:36 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Does the devil use deception to communicate with humans?

Is the devil real??

Why a question to a question? I don't think god or the devil are real things. Do you feel that the devil has influence in your life or not?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-03-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
Another question unrelated to the others...

Have you tried this with other religions? Meaning have you gone to Muslim, Hinduism, Shinto, Cheondoism, Jainism, forums to discuss/ argue your part? Or is it just atheists?

And which do you find more...outrageous/ offensive/ silly (not sure which word to use, but I think you get the point)? The lack of belief in any god, or belief in a different god?

The religion of one age, is the literary entertainment of the next.
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24-03-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:20 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:10 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Firstly, stop erasing the opening half of the quote tags.


You are assuming that. You have to assume the holy spirit exists in order for it to be proof of God. It's circular. What evidence do you have that doesn't require you to assume he exists in the first place?



Read Matthew 10 in it's entirety. It doesn't say that. You're assuming that to maintain a narrative:


He sends them out, but he doesn't say this applies to the final judgment.

So we can ask some very basic questions that are going to put us on opposite ends of the scale Am I assuming the holy spirit exists or am I claiming...your getting caught up in the words and ignoring the concept...My claim, the holy spirit exists, especially within my life...your claim no he doesn't....my claim....Yes he does...Where do you wanna go from here???

Nor is he speaking about his physical reign on earth, So what is your assertion of this scripture, I'm curious??

Robby is NOT making a claim. Robby is saying he DOUBTS your claim of this "holy spirit" thing. It is now incumbent upon you to show sufficient (and that means EXTRAORDINARY in this case) evidence to support your EXTRAORDINARY claim.

And that, kid, is "where we go from here".

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-03-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:14 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 09:49 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  No, not any of those things. I can explain why I don't believe very simply.

I have never heard, or been given convincing or compelling evidence to believe. That's it, and that's all.

You yourself actually do understand this concept, as you yourself (I am assuming) never heard, or have been given convincing evidence to believe in Vishnu. In the same way you remain unconvinced of Vishnu, Thor, Odin, Ra, the coyote trickster god, the great juju of the mountain, the shark Aumakua, etc... In the same way you remain unconvinced in these and many more, I remain unconvinced in your thing.

That's it, and that's all.


Ok. Im not hear to try and convince you...your mind is made up....I'm hear to find out why...it goes deeper than evidence...its something that is repelling you...the people...culture etc. experience. Im hear to hear your story...Your real story
If you “honestly” “want” to “understand” what we think, try not to tell us what we think, how we feel, and how we came to those conclusions. If you ignore what I actually say, and replace it with what you want to believe I really think, then just go on pretending you already know what I think, and don’t bother asking.

If you really do honestly want to understand, then let me repeat this, and try to take this seriously because it’s the real reason… I have never heard, or been given convincing or compelling evidence to believe. That's it, and that's all.

There is not something that repels me. It’s not a cultural thing, or a “negative” experience I had. And no, my mind is never “made up”…never.

I don’t care what the truth is. Only that it is true. What I believe in is reality, whatever that may be, for better or worse. If some aspect of what I understand of reality turns out not to be true, or some other version of reality does, then that is what I believe, whether I like it or do not. But I need reason to believe in that reality, whatever it may be, whether it’s your “god”, the big bang, a tea pot orbiting the sun, matter being composed of atoms and molecules, or whatever it may or may not be.

The things I currently “believe”, I have no choice but to “believe” because of the evidence for them is so compelling. I cannot not believe in the Earth, because the evidence for the Earth is overwhelming. It’s not so much a belief, as it is accepting the truth of it. The things I lack belief in are things for which I lack evidence for. I cannot believe in something for which I have no reason to believe. Like you, I cannot believe in Zeus just because I may or may not want to believe in him. We both would need to have compelling evidence to believe in Zeus. Lacking that, we do not. Your Yahweh is no different to me in that respect.

I am not repelled by Zeus, or the culture of the people who believed in Zeus, as a reason I do not believe in him. If amazing evidence was presented that Zeus was real and existed, (assuming hypothetically in this case, for the sake of argument, that he did exist) then I would have to accept that as true. Though I don’t possibly see what evidence could possibly present itself given what we do know about history, the world, and reality. But if I did believe I would need reason, I would need evidence.

It’s no different with your Yahweh.


If you want to hear my “real” story. It’s this I have never heard, or been given convincing or compelling evidence to believe. That's it, and that's all.

That’s it…seriously…that’s it.
It really doesn't get too much more complicated than that.
I know you want to believe it was something that happened to use. That we are simply hurt in someway. But it's not. I really is simply that I've never have had or heard compelling reason to believe. If it turned out that "God" was in fact real, and there was actual reason to believe that, and hypothetically it were in fact true, then I would believe that. But your Yahweh doesn't fit in with reality. It doesn't make sense, and that's why I asked you to describe what "god" would be, because "god" would have to be a thing that could exist before I could ever even seriously consider it, let alone your specific version of "god". But no one can even start with the premiss of what a "god" is. Or show evidence of that specific "god" for which they believe in.

...
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24-03-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:53 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:41 AM)natachan Wrote:  Yes, btw. Zero objective evidence.

I'm not saying your faith doesn't work for you or give you some comfort or whatever. Good for you. But the existence of a God is a fact about the universe. You have no evidence for a universal God. Just a voice in your head.

Okay lets ask some basic questions....If I hear God's Voice, what can i Deduce from that??? A.) God is real B.) He speaks C.) he must exist in a realm that is not the same as our own etc. What happens if i tell someone of my experience?? They have a choice to believe me or to not believe me....but they can not entirely say that what i am experiencing is untrue...they can only believe it <---this is reality...If you don't believe my claim that is one thing...to talk the stance and say it is untrue is a false claim because you don't have the evidence to make that claim, I do<-----This is reality again

no. You can deduce that you heard a voice that you believe is god. That doesn't make it so.

I see a jackelope on the side of the road in passing. By your logic this means I actually saw one and that it's real. I say I go back, check again, take a photo, get a video, try to capture it and bring it back. Have another person examine it. Only if all this agrees do I believe that this is a jackelope. And only tenuously.
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24-03-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:43 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:20 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  So we can ask some very basic questions that are going to put us on opposite ends of the scale Am I assuming the holy spirit exists or am I claiming...your getting caught up in the words and ignoring the concept...My claim, the holy spirit exists, especially within my life...your claim no he doesn't....my claim....Yes he does...Where do you wanna go from here???

See, I'm going to stop you right there.

I am not claiming he doesn't exist. That is an unprovable statement. You assert he exists and must prove he exists. I'm asking you what evidence you have that he exists.

You don't have any. You have a (self admitted) claim. You can believe it all you want, but you're not giving me a compelling reason to believe.


(24-03-2014 10:20 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  Nor is he speaking about his physical reign on earth, So what is your assertion of this scripture, I'm curious??

What's your proof that he is? He's giving them standing orders in how to proceed. He doesn't say anything about a final judgment. He's telling them what to do in the here and now (at the time it supposedly happened). There is no evidence he was talking about the future.

You actually work within the bounds of logic and don't deduce to name calling etc...hopefully you don't Two things...

See, I'm going to stop you right there.

I am not claiming he doesn't exist. That is an unprovable statement. You assert he exists and must prove he exists. I'm asking you what evidence you have that he exists.

You don't have any. You have a (self admitted) claim. You can believe it all you want, but you're not giving me a compelling reason to believe <--- I can't give you a compelling reason to believe...that is not my job, My job is tell you of my experience, What God has done for me etc. If you choose to listen and accept it, your a bit more open that i previously precieved, If not you have your reasons for not believing in Gods use of people for carrying out his plans, I'm assuming that your objections are of his people, correct??



Secondly if we are not sound-biting and we are looking at this scripture and it's preceding chapters, and the chapters after it you, you see that Jesus is a non-violent person...That leaves two possible deductions, Either he speaking in contradiction, which he doesn't do (in my opinion), or he is talking about a later time. I choose to later...Your turn
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24-03-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:17 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 09:45 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Question: Is salvation by faith alone?

Salvation is not by faith alone, 90% of the time it starts out as something uncontrollable that happens in your life, and your left to look up at God and question if is he is there. The ones that honestly want him to be involved in there lives, I mean honestly not giving him a half chance, I mean giving him the full opportunity, He meets. Right then and there and that experience is cemented. That is how it happened for me. In that moment God met me

So then all my pastors lied to me? My father is mistaken? What about all these passages they use? Now I'm confused Huh

Here's some passages so you know I'm not just trolling:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18, 36
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 16:30-31
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:20, 28
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?

Romans 5:1
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:9
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Galatians 3:11-12
The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Atir aissom atir imon
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24-03-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: Having an honest conversation about God with a thiest
(24-03-2014 10:48 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 10:12 AM)vin2890 Wrote:  Well what your not going to be able to do is tell me that i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing. It doesn't have to be evidence for you, but you what your not going to be able to say is that what i'm experiencing just doesn't exist...This is also a weak argument


*you're

I'm

We certainly can dispute that you are actually experiencing what you CLAIM the experience you claim to experience actually represents.

If the sun suddenly shines on my head and heats up my hair, and I start running around frantically shouting "MY HAIR IS ON FIRE! MY HAIR IS ON FIRE!", everyone around me is perfectly within their right to dismiss me as a loon.

you can dispute it, and say it isn't true but that would require some evidence that God doesn't exist to say holistically that your dispute is true. If you don't believe it that's one thing, but to say I'm lying or I'm not telling the truth, you can't make that claim...That's just reality people. I can make the claim The holy spirit exists in my life, because its my life lol what you believe about my assertion is your belief, but it is that....you belief
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